Maidstone

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I've played Maidstone 3 times if memory serves.

Is there a benchmark for how many times one must play a course before opining on it?

If so -- let me know the rules as you see it and I'll be sure to comply provided others - yourself included -- do likewise on courses I have played many many times and you and others much less so.

In regards to the address -- get over it -- it does matter because The Hamptons enjoys a unique setting here in America. I don't say that as a putdown -- if you infer such a thing the insecurity rests with you -- not I. I have saluted the course a bunch of times -- I'm just not genuflecting like you do. By the way -- I agree w you on the nature of the 9th hole -- one of the premier holes in the States. However, I don't see the totality of the course being at that level and frankly there are a number of holes that are nothing more than bystanders to the main highlights encountered when playing.

[Wayne Freeman]

see Maidstone benefiting immensely from being in the neighborhood it occupies. Place the course elsewhere and I don't know if it would generate as high a placement.



I would have to disagree with this statement.  If anything I think Maidstone is underrated because of its location.  It is overshadowed by NGLA, Shinnecock, Fishers Island, Friars Head, GCGC, Bethpage, etc.  Would Sand Hills be ranked higher if it were in Southampton, NY instead of Mullen, Nebraska???  If anything, I think course benefits when it is the only high profile course in its area.  I think this is one reason why Oak Hill is consistently ranked so highly against its downstate competitors.
 
                            
          JNC-  I think you've got it a bit wrong here.  Maidstone is definitely not underated.  It is listed #72 by Digest, #39 by Golf Mag, and #37 classic by Golfweek.  Not too shabby.  Personally I would have it higher on the Digest list.  The other courses listed above are simply better- (possible exception Oak Hill)......     they are bolder,  stronger from an architectual standpoint,  and more solid thru and thru.  Location has nothing to do with it.  Sand Hills,  I think indeed probably benefits more from being so remotely located in Nebraska.  Probably it's sheer novelty helps it because although it is pretty darn good,  it also has some rather mundane holes in the middle of its journey.  It is #12 Digest, #8 Golf Mag, and #1 Golfweek modern.
 

[Gene Greco]

 Sand Hills,  I think indeed probably benefits more from being so remotely located in Nebraska.  Probably it's sheer novelty helps it because although it is pretty darn good,  it also has some rather mundane holes in the middle of its journey.  It is #12 Digest, #8 Golf Mag, and #1 Golfweek modern.

Care to name what you consider to be the " rather mundane holes in the middle of the journey?"

[Paul_Turner]

I think Maidstone stacks up pretty well against the top links in GB&I.  I like the subtle holes nearly as much as the more spectacular dunes holes,  just small undulation architecture with neat angles of attack.

I don't believe Maidstone, or any other course for that matter, gets a boost because it's closeby to more famous (and possibly even better) courses.  Does Deal get a boost by being adjacent to Sandwich, or Formby having Birkdale nearly next door?  Of course not. 

The only drawback I thought, was the turf on the lagoon holes:  it's not all that "linksy".

[Richard Boult]

added to http://delicious.com/golfclubatlas/New%2BYork

now over 300 listings!

[Bradley Anderson]

Does Maidstone allow carts on the golf course?

[TEPaul]

Bradley:

Yes, they do but they also have a very large caddy cadre. As one might expect from a course and club that essentially has such an "Old World" ethos to it most all those members prefer to walk. They seem to bring in a ton of caddies from outside the country. As I know Sean Arble and Melvyn Morrow will very much enjoy to also hear about Maidstone and its member when they walk on that golf course they really do motor along at a remarkable clip---eg they have those pedometers up at flank speed.

In 1999 I went to Old Head and had a wonderful young guy as my caddy. The next summer who's my caddy in the Maidstone Bowl? The same guy!

And, of course, I have a pretty funny story about him too.

Later.

[C. Squier]

Apparently since they have so many caddies from different countries, they have a pretty big caddy tournament that pairs of 2 guys from each country.  According to ours, it's a pretty big deal to them, much more than your normal "caddy tournament".  A real sense of pride goes to the winning country, I believe the Argentineans are the recent caddy powerhouse at Maidstone.

[ChipOat]

Matt Ward,

Let me re-emphasize that I said Maidstone "would be my choice if I could only play one course for the rest of my life".  Hopefully, that won't actually happen until I'm in my 80's (getting there).

Since I wouldn't want to be restricted to just a truly "great" course when I'm old and feeble, that leaves out Merion, Pine Valley, Winged Foot, Dornoch, Oakmont and Shinnecock - one of the problems with their greatness is that they're too damn hard for old guys.  I can see the day coming when I couldn't break 110 from the very front of the forward tees on those guys.

Maidstone and Somerset Hills are plenty wonderful right now if I could only play there and, hopefully, should be playable when 125 yards is is a big drive for me.  However, I'm looking for a great, playable 10-12 month course - Maidstone is 6 months and SHCC about 8 months.

Soooooooo, I didn't say Maidstone is a better course than Cypress Point (I agree with you - it isn't).  BUT, Cypress is my very favorite 12 month course and I think I could probably get around it from the uber-senior tees ok until I go to that great bunker in the sky (assuming Tommy Naccarato approves of it's design and construction, that is).  But I would still prefer Maidstone for the "rest of my life" gig if I didn't have to take 6 months off.

In terms of whether my preference for Maidstone has to do with my (expected) success there, Hell, yes it does.  If I have to play one, and only one, it needs to be both wonderful and playable.  I don't know when my last round will be at Pine Valley, but I doubt that it will be after my 80th birthday.  And at some point, I'm just going to stop putting at National altogether and only play the tee-to-green shots on the routes for the old guys that Charles McDonald so cleverly designed.  Maidstone's greens are already challenging enough but not ridiculous - even downwind.

While I'm on the subject, San Francisco Golf Club is my 2nd favorite year round venue so I guess that would be Plan B.

[Doug Siebert]

Why would Dornoch be too hard for an old guy?  That wouldn't be my first choice, but I could see it being just as fun when I'm twice my age.  I may not be able to reach some of the greens by then, but hopefully at some point that legendary "old man short game" that makes you able to get up and down from anywhere will kick in for me

[Pat Burke]

Chipoat:

Got to ask you this -- how much of your feelings for Maidstone are tied to a large degree because of your own personal success / connection to what the layout does for your own golf game?

For example, you have certain people here on GCA who respect Shinnecock, Winged Foot / West and Bethpage / Black for what they provide but when it comes to actual love those feelings move to other places like NGLA or Maidstone, Quaker or Fenway or Garden City GC because from a golfing standpoint they can experience some sort of real success versus the sheer intensity they usually encounter when playing any of the aforementioned layouts. Just something to think about.

One small difference between us ...

I see Maidstone benefiting immensely from being in the neighborhood it occupies. Place the course elsewhere and I don't know if it would generate as high a placement. Better than CP? Wow -- quite a compliment but CP has few holes from the minite you tee off -- the lone apparent drag -- the closing hole.

MAtt, the neighborhood brings an interesting point.  I am a biased NY/NJ golf course fan, and have made the same point regarding Southern California's "better" courses.   I really do not believe that LACC would stand out as much in the NY/NJ area.  It does stand out against weak competition.  Riviera has some great elements, and I haven't played there in the past 5 years, but I felt that it held up throughout the round.
Most of the other highly regarded courses just never made me feel as impressed with so many of the courses I was blessed to grow up playing (Deal, Hollywood, Mountain Ridge, Plainfield, Ridgewood etc)
By the way, re: Maidstone, never got to play it, but walked it watching my dad as a kid.  Was one of those courses that got me in trouble in school, I spent the next week drawing golf courses in my school notebooks instead of taking notes

[John Mayhugh]

The flag was definitely normal height and I could not see it from the tee. With the breeze we had, not being able to see might have been a good thing!

You can see from the pic below that the flag was normal height.



I thought the caddies were really good.  I had a college kid from Ireland who was outstanding.  I've never seen anyone do a better job carrying double. 
 

[Matt_Ward]

Pat:

Thanks for your comments.

Location does matter and courses from the New York metro area -- especially those concentrated in the greater Hampton area do benefit from the cluster effect and from the high bar that's been the rule for design in that area. I mean how many other places in the USA can you find courses that are among the very elite within such a small mileage area to visit?

Pat, we are indeed blessed to live in an area where the wide assortment of courses is that high.

I can only hope your teachers were golfers in order to better understand your affinity for top quality courses !

[ChipOat]

Doug Siebert;

Dornoch too hilly to walk (think #6 green to #7 tee box); rough too deep (think gorse and heather); carries too long.  TOC better for the Geritol set than RDGC.  Maidstone flatter to walk, shorter carries from the very front; greens less demanding - still a marvelous golf course.

[Matt_Ward]

Chip:

Here's what I asked you before ... "how much of your feelings for Maidstone are tied to a large degree because of your own personal success / connection to what the layout does for your own golf game?

Given your answer I'd have to say you elevate your personal self interest over the nature of a say more demanding layouts like Winged Foot / West, Bethpage Black and even Shinnecock Hills.

There's nothing wrong with that -- but my point is that those who don't hit the ball sufficient distance now will see the three aformentioned courses with great respect but little overall love because their respective game doesn't stack up well against them.

My point Chip is that such courses like the three I mentioned are lowered because of the connection to your own game -- rather than being evaluated purely on the architectural elements they provide.

I'd be curious do you see the three I mentioned as being superior (by any definition you wish to include) to such layouts as Maidstone, Somerset Hills and SFGC?

Thanks for your candor -- it is appreciated.

[Gerry B]

i would sum up Maidstone as follows:

if asked to compare it with the 2 highly ranked gems in southampton ( and have played all 3 numerous times ) i would answer:

Shinnecock is the best of the 3
NGLA is the most unique.
Maidstone is the most fun to play.

if i had to play 10 rounds between the 3 courses  - would probably end up as
Shinnecock - 3
NGLA -3
Maidstone - 4

Yes, there are some benign holes but the great ones more than make up for it. The run of holes 4-10 might be one of the best stretches in golf. When the wind blows the relatively short 6500 yds by today's standards becomes a major test.  This is not a course for everyone - if you don't revere charming old school golf  and consider conditioning  important - you might not appreciate the place.

[Jordan Wall]

That wouldn't happen to be one John Mayhugh in that dune, would it?

[Patrick_Mucci]

I was flipping through the new World Atlas of Golf last night, and read the section on Maidstone. I've seen some photos of the course, but haven't visited Maidstone yet. It seems like a fascinating golf course, featuring a smart routing over a unique property.

I think there's been some discussion, here, on Maidstone over the years. But not much in recent times. For those familiar with the course: How good is Maidstone?

Jeff,

Maidstone is one of those courses that I would describe as "sporty"

It's not a "championship" course and it's not a typical "membership" course.

It has that unique blend of land and water (ocean and ponds) combined with the greatest asset to playing golf, the WIND.  It has both an inland and a links personality.

It's the type of golf course that you could play every day and never tire of.

Without the wind it would still be a very good golf course, but, the wind exponentially enhances the architecture and the playing challenge.

The first time I ever played Maidstone, as I walked off the 18th green, my host and I just looked at each other and proceeded to the first tee for another round, never given more than a nano-seconds thought to the fact that we would be about 5 hours late to a Bar-B-Q he was hosting.

And, the neat thing was that the wind had shifted, so it was like playing the course for the first time, all over again.

Maidstone is a special golf course.

[Gerry B]

and bonus points for the chili dogs and heinekens on tap at the classic halfway house which is adjacent to the 9th and 13th greens in a great seaside setting

[Pat Burke]

Pat:

Thanks for your comments.

Location does matter and courses from the New York metro area -- especially those concentrated in the greater Hampton area do benefit from the cluster effect and from the high bar that's been the rule for design in that area. I mean how many other places in the USA can you find courses that are among the very elite within such a small mileage area to visit?

Pat, we are indeed blessed to live in an area where the wide assortment of courses is that high.

I can only hope your teachers were golfers in order to better understand your affinity for top quality courses !

I was pretty lucky.   Third generation golf pro, all generations produced pretty decent players.
I was more lucky to grow up the son of 2 golf pros in New Jersey, which allowed me the opportunity to play so many of the metro areas classic courses.  Actually made my dad crazy.  Usually heard  "why the hell do you have to drive all over the place to play these courses when you have this course (Deal GC) to play.  He didn't understand my psychosis for golf course architecture

[Jon Spaulding]

That wouldn't happen to be one John Mayhugh in that dune, would it?

J-Rad....confirming that is Mayhugh, the good samaritan.

[Sean_A]

After perusing my new WA of Golf it strikes me that the routing for Maidstone looks brilliant.  Who did the routing as we know it today.  Does anybody know how the land bridge (I assume it was built) idea came about?

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Sean:

How the entire routing of Maidstone came about over the years is a really complicated story including the piecemealing together of particular parts of the land over the years some of which had some former holes on them. But the routing today was certainly finalized by Park and it hasn't much changed at all since. What do you mean by a "land bridge"?

[Sean_A]

Sean:

How the entire routing of Maidstone came about over the years is a really complicated story including the piecemealing together of particular parts of the land over the years some of which had some former holes on them. But the routing today was certainly finalized by Park and it hasn't much changed at all since. What do you mean by a "land bridge"?

Tom

The 4th & 16th tees are on a peninsula, but it looks like a bridge (probably natural looking) links the tee to the ocean side of the course. 

Ciao

[Jon Spaulding]

Hi Sean; here are a couple of photos of the foot bridge to the 4th green/oceanside section of the course. I believe there was a washed out bridge down towards the 5th green but I did not take a photo.

If you look hard enough in the last photo, you can make out Mike Sweeney's "July" hamptons house where he keeps Mayhugh locked up in the basement.