Maidstone

[Jeff_Mingay]

I was flipping through the new World Atlas of Golf last night, and read the section on Maidstone. I've seen some photos of the course, but haven't visited Maidstone yet. It seems like a fascinating golf course, featuring a smart routing over a unique property.

I think there's been some discussion, here, on Maidstone over the years. But not much in recent times. For those familiar with the course: How good is Maidstone?

[Jon Spaulding]

Funny you should ask....I was planning a thread once time permits. But here goes.....

I thought the place was a near perfect "overall" experience. The course was excellent, save a few holes. The collection of inland, water, and dunesland holes, along with the setting hard along the Atlantic reminded me of the experience at CPC. The maintenance and rough look throughout is unique and should be commended. The stretch between 6 and 14 is simply sublime and one of the best 9-hole stretches I have ever experienced. One could argue that 3 cape-style holes in an 18-hole loop is too many....but given the lack of them in the rest of the world, kudos. Bunkering is generally very aesthetically pleasing and well placed, save a few locations. The native grasses are generally playable as a 1/2 stroke penalty and frame many of the holes in a manner which many places would be wise to study. The beach club and clubhouse are out of this world.

Here are the photos:

#1 green

#3 tee shot

#3 greensite

#4

#6 teeshot

#6 approach

#6 greenside bunker

#7 teeshot

#7 greensite

the obligatory shot of #9.....

#10 teeshot

#10 approach

#7 green/#8 tee from #10 green

#11 tee shot

#11 approach

#12 tee shot

#12 from odd angle

#13 tee shot

#13 FW bunker

#13 approach

#14

A picture of a guy taking a picture of #14 green

#15 teeshot

#15 approach

#15 greenside bunker

#16 teeshot

#16 approach

Shared bunker between #3 and #16

#17 tee shot

#17 green

#18 tee shot

#18 green

Clubhouse

Beach Club

[George Pazin]

For those familiar with the course: How good is Maidstone?

Depends on if you're a Tom Paul or a Matt Ward.

Dodson wrote a wonderful piece about playing a round with Rees Jones at Maidstone. I'll try to see if I can find it.

[TEPaul]

"For those familiar with the course: How good is Maidstone?"

Jeff:

I've known it very well for around twenty five years now. How good is it? Well, I'd put it in my top half dozen or so in America always recognizing it is definitely not everyone's cup of tea.

I love it because it has such an "old golf" atmosphere to it. It may be the closest thing I know in America to a real linksland feel and atmosphere, that is if one does not mind including all those holes that wind through the natural grassy ponds and marshes inside the coastal dunes holes that are basically indigenous to the south shore out around the Hamptons.

Maidtsone's architectural evolution is pretty complex because the club is very old and the original holes are somewhat hard to figure out but what we think of as Maidstone today is mostly Willie Park Jr., maybe a tad of Raynor and some Maxwell. But it's mostly Park Jr from the 1920s. There are a few pretty unusual holes, some really lovely looking ones and a few others that seem a little bland looking architecturally but play just fine.

For years now #9 has been my favorite par 4 in the world for reasons that are hard to describe; you sort of have to see it to understand and #14 just may be one of the coolest and prettiest little almost totally "natural setting" coastal par 3s anywhere. The first hole I termed "European Amorphous" when I first played there in the Maidstone Bowl around twenty five years ago because (apparently like a lot of people before me) I stood on the first tee and basically blurted out: "Where is the golf course?"

It's not much mentioned but the club actually has 27 holes. The other nine is mostly called the "Kid's Nine", and it is some of those holes that were from the original 19th century course.

Maidstone, playability or challenge-wise is one of the most varied I've ever know pretty much relating to the extreme spectrum of conditions one can find and play in on that course.

The overall atmosphere of Maidstone is very Old World and to me the whole place, club, beach club, course and all just screams, style, Style, STYLE!!

I've never thought of this until this moment but if for some reason North America was left with only one golf course I would hope it could be Maidstone, because for a number of reasons it probably represents both ends of the entire spectrum in American golf if not golf from abroad back in the day too even though for most who first see it, it may tend more towards the old end of that entire spectrum of golf over here.

They may be about to change this now (unfortunately in my opinion) but Maidstone is just one of only three top notch courses left in America that I'm aware of that has no fairway irrigation system and the reason is definitely NOT because the club couldn't or can't afford it, that's for sure.

The other two who still have no fairway irrigation that are very well known are Newport and Fishers Island and here's a New Flash for you----if you could put the entire collective memberships of Maidstone, Newport and Fishers Island all together in one place at one time you would have absolutely zero idea who came from which club!  

[John Foley]

I got a copy of the Maidstone history by David Goddard of eBay recently and it is fascinating reading about how the tracks of land we're aquired and the course put togher.

Highly recomend it if you can get ahold of it.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Thanks for your thoughts, Tom.

Everything you've written here confirms ALL my suspicions about Maidstone. Seems like a very cool place, in an Old World sense; which is right up my alley.

As I've stated above, the map in the new World Atlas... makes the routing look really smart, relative to Park's use of the inland lagoons and the coastal dunes.

An interesting fact about Maidstone's 9th hole in the World Atlas...: Apparently, the massive dune left of the fairway is actually built (see below... in photo borrowed from Morrissett's write-up on Maidstone here, at Golf Club Atlas).

[Jeff_Mingay]

Wow. Wonderful photos, Jon. Thanks for sharing them.

I need to study these images a bit before offering anything else.

Thanks again,

[CJ Carder]

I love it because it has such an "old golf" atmosphere to it. It may be the closest thing I know in America to a real linksland feel and atmosphere, that is if one does not mind including all those holes that wind through the natural grassy ponds and marshes inside the coastal dunes holes that are basically indigenous to the south shore out around the Hamptons.

I was thinking, the picture of the tee shot on #15 looks very Troon-like.

How does the "links" nature of the course compare to others we might consider to be US-linksland (i.e. Kiawah, Shinnecock, etc)?

[Dean Stokes]

Jeff,

I played here last October. It has to be one of the best courses I have played. Tremendous.

As TE said, it feels very 'old world'. Very classy indeed.

It is the type of course I could play everyday and never get bored.

[TEPaul]

"An interesting fact about Maidstone's 9th hole in the World Atlas...: Apparently, the massive dune left of the fairway is actually built (see below... in photo borrowed from Morrissett's write-up on Maidstone here, at Golf Club Atlas)."


Jeff:

It's so interesting you say that, or, World Atlas said that!

Before I even begin to explain, let me first say that the answer to a question like that may be pretty hard to pin point, or, let me say it another way----eg what you see there as that dune on the left (and frankly the right too) may seem to be "built" but I believe a better way to explain it may be to use the phrase that it was essentially created by the architect going down with it and not up.

I realize it may be hard to understand what I mean by that. Let me preface.

John Foley mentioned the club history book of Maidstone by David Goddard that he just came by on ebay. It really is quite a book with some remarkable research on the oldest iteration of that club and first course and how it all came to evolve over time into what it is today. Believe me it was complicated and an evolution of some real piecemealing parcels together (and losing some too).

We know David Goddard, he lives out there and Wayne and I dealt with him alot on the history of Shinnecock. David sounds British to me and for the longest time we thought he belonged to Shinnecock but he doesn't. I suppose he is just known out there as a very good writer or writer/researcher. The only other thing we know about him is he is damn near impossible to get a hold of sometimes!

Nevertheless, in that history of his on Maidstone he had to have done a ton of research in the town on all kinds of deed swaps over the years and perhaps even engineering plans and reports filed with the town of Easthampton.

So let me explain why I mention this vis-a-vis what you and World Atlas said about that dune on the left being "built".

Goddard said in his book that Willie Park Jr essentially went DOWN approximately ten feet on the center of that hole perhaps from about 100 yards off the tee all the way to the end of the green on the right. In other words, Park may've created that valley along the center of that hole with one massive "Cut" operation!! If you look at it in person and the elevations of the fairways and holes around it including how the entire 10th hole is grade-wise and where the 13th green and fairway and the halfway house is you'd understand better.

But why would Park do such a thing? I don't have his book with me right here but I recall that Goddard said Park generated that massive cut to create the fill for what is essentially the entire 7th hole which was once part of the pond or marsh next to it.

So, that dune on the left (and probably the right too) may look built or built up but I think what Park did is remove a ton of material along what now appears to be its steep right side, thereby creating that look and the much lower fairway than the way that land and grade was before he made that golf hole.

I've loved that hole for twenty five years and part of the reason is it just looks so cool looking down into that elongated sunken valley fairway from the high tee on the dune behind #8 green, not to mention trying to hit that thing in a big wind or cross-wind-----but I only heard about this about 5-6 years ago and when I did I just said to myself; "OH MY GOD!!!

And who ever would've noticed or would've even thought Park did such a thing there??

Jeff, THAT is what I call HIDING THE HAND OF MAN and a great architect who can make something he did that massive look like he never did a thing!!!

THAT is what I call GREAT GOLF COURSE ARCHITECTURE!!!

PS:
If YOU are anywhere around the area just say the word and I'll take you there!

[Brad Tufts]

Wow....amazing at home much it reminds of Kittansett (open holes) and Newport.  Very low-profile and strategic looking.

[TEPaul]

Jon Spaudling:

You DA MAN!

I'm no picture taker and I don't think I've taken a single one of that course in all these years but it's so neat (great collaboration) for Jeff Mingay to ask about Maidstone and get a series of photos like those within a day. That kind of thing is what's so cool about GOLFCLUBATLAS.com----eg collaboration of information!

But JON, GODDAMNIT TO HELL, you shot every single hole but where is one from the tee on #8??

When you first see it that just has to be one of the more amazing deals in American golf. The reason I was thinking about it is I was about to tell JeffM the story of how some years ago apparently some prominent member just couldn't take that blindness on that par 3 tee shot and so he managed to have that whole dune removed late one fall.

BUT, leave it to good old MOTHER NATURE. Apparently when they all came back again the next spring she'd put that dune back just the way it had been and has been ever since!   

[Sean_A]

Isn't this a superb example of bunkering?  I gotta love it.  Thanks so much for posting Jon.  Its one of those courses like Newport that one always hears about, but never really get a sense of what its about.  Old world seems an apt description and just the sort of place that rings my bell.



This too is a classic looking green.  It screams at the golfer to make a choice - in the air or on the ground. 


I also really like how this forward bunker creates dead space behind it with a raised green - this is great tactical stuff and a perfect example of why yardage guns should be banned.


Ciao  

[TEPaul]

Sean:

I've been reading your posts and opinions on things for a long time and I doubt there is much of anything about The Maidstone and the look of it you'd have any problem with.

[Brad Swanson]

When I think of Maidstone, I think "old school" and variety.  The holes near the ocean are very special, and I also very much liked nearly all of the front 9 holes in and around the lagoons.  Unfortunately I missed out on playing #16 and #17 (2 of the better holes on the course from what  I've been told) due to some minor flooding from recent storms during my round there.  There are some less than memorable holes on the back 9 (11-13).  Despite this, Maidstone might just be the course I would chose to play had I only one course to play for a lifetime.  The veranda at sunset is a fantastic treat, and I've been told that the beach has some nice views during the summer as well.

Brad

[Sean_A]

Sean:

I've been reading your posts and opinions on things for a long time and I doubt there is much of anything about The Maidstone and the look of it you'd have any problem with.

TomP

I freely admit to a certain bias when it comes to architecture.  If that means Maidstone makes up part of that bias - well sue me - I like old time golf and its simple pleasures.  The really interesting thing about the pix is that I can't place the course.  There are very few places which leave me without some sort of comparison as in "it reminds me of".  Even more perplexing is that there isn't anything out of the ordinary to peg Maidstone out by itself like the Huntercombe Hollows or Muirfield's bunkers or TOC's double greens.  Extraordinary. 

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Brad:

I don't know if you meant it but that last photo of the Beach Club is not taken from the veranda or patio on the second floor of the clubhouse, it's from the walkway. The vantage from the patio on the second floor is way more impressive.

I wouldn't say I'm a very "spiritual" man but standing up there one beautiful evening in my Monkey Suit as the band was playing and the last fingers of the light of the day were stealing away to the west, I was up there alone looking down on those spire-like roofs of that historic old beach club and onto the beach and out to sea in the loaming and all of a sudden all the years, all the generations who have been through there over the ages, including all those I've known and loved who are now gone, started floating by and murmuring to me as they passed.  

I choked up and had some pretty serious tear in my eyes. Some people might call that "a Moment". I did my best to clean myself up and clear my eyes but when I went back in my wife saw me and said: "What's wrong with you, you look like you've been crying? I told her it must've been the wind in my eyes on the patio but she reminded me there hadn't been a breath of wind all day.

She probably figured I'd had about a bottle of wine already, and she may've been right about that   but that wasn't why me eyes were red!

(I just corrected that post to say the light of day was stealing away to the west not the east. I may be getting a little dislexic in my old age but I hope I still know where the sun rises and where it sets).

[Dean Stokes]

Sean:

I've been reading your posts and opinions on things for a long time and I doubt there is much of anything about The Maidstone and the look of it you'd have any problem with.

TomP

I freely admit to a certain bias when it comes to architecture.  If that means Maidstone makes up part of that bias - well sue me - I like old time golf and its simple pleasures.  The really interesting thing about the pix is that I can't place the course.  There are very few places which leave me without some sort of comparison as in "it reminds me of".  Even more perplexing is that there isn't anything out of the ordinary to peg Maidstone out by itself like the Huntercombe Hollows or Muirfield's bunkers or TOC's double greens.  Extraordinary. 

Ciao

Sean,
It reminds me of a cross between Linderick, Ganton and Alwoodley but on the ocean. Does that help you

[TEPaul]

You know I'm quite surprised that Jeff Mingay (who really knows his stuff guys) has not seen more on here about Maidstone because it sure has been discussed on here over the years (I know because I personally probably have a hundred posts on it ).

So, there is one thing I'd like to mention again and certainly to Jeff.

That is that Maidstone is a par 72, BUT #15 and #16 are nothing but good long par 4s for the good and long player and because they are I've said for years if Maidstone wants to take care of that somewhat negative impression, all they have to do is print up a couple thousand scorecards for the good player level calling those two holes par 4s and the course a par 70. They don't need to do a thing to either hole. I'd pay for it myself if they'd agree to do it. It's really a trick but the perception of the good strong player would go up on those holes and the course measurably in no time.

There is an old rule of thumb in the Maidstone Bowl that if you get into the finals on Sunday and you reach those holes your team (it's scratch) pretty much does need to go birdie-eagle on #15 and #16 if you're going to win that thing. I should know, as I played in it for maybe twenty five years and got into the finals about five times and never did win it. One of the reasons I think is I always was real short off the tee for a scratch player and I couldn't reach #15 in two and didn't get on #16 that often and had I been able to with regularity, me and my partners may've gotten ourselves a Maidstone Bowl championship or two.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

Great stuff! Particularly "your version" of the design/construction of the 9th hole. The cut in the fairway area makes more sense than a fill to create the dune at left, now that you've brought it up. Very interesting.

Willie Park Jnr. was a true visionary. I continually become more and more interested in his life and works; at least in part because he did some really neat stuff in Canada that, unfortunately, has not been very well-preserved.

Anyway, if in fact creation of the 9th hole at Maidstone involved a massive cut to not only create that particularly impressive hole, but also to generate fill for another -- perhaps the 7th, as you say -- I'm astonished. I mean, this is "Pete Dye" stuff back in the mid 1920s. Amazing. Visionary.

True "minimalism" at work! Honestly, as Tom's pointed out above, this is GREAT golf course architecture. PIONEERING stuff. Big time.

[David Stamm]

Jon, I ask for photos of our day there and this is what I get? 

I'm in agreement w/ Jon. Our day there in terms of experience was right up there w/ CPC. It really felt like a time warp from the moment you drive into the club. I've never been to a place that felt quite like it. Jon is correct, it is a little too "Capey" in spots, but it doesn't really deter from the experience of the course. Some outstanding holes. Aside from the famous ones (8,9,10,14) there are some really great holes that fly under the radar such as 5,6,7 and 13. I hear from time to time that the Maidstone is a 3 hole course. Don't believe it. It's a truly great course w/ few average/weak holes. And the Goddard book is one of the best club histories I think I have ever seen. A very, very special place.

[TEPaul]

"Anyway, if in fact creation of the 9th hole at Maidstone involved a massive cut to not only create that particularly impressive hole, but also to generate fill for another -- perhaps the 7th, as you say -- I'm astonished. I mean, this is "Pete Dye" stuff back in the mid 1920s. Amazing. Visionary."

Jeff:

To hear that I was just as stunned as you, but don't forget it was in the 1920s although original Maidstone was a lot older than that.

Nevertheless, when I hear things like that from a guy like Goddard my first sensation is there's no real way Goddard could just dream stuff like that up. I believe he had to have found that information filed in engineering records right there in the not large town of Easthampton. At any time, and certainly in the 1920s, that is one massive engineering (and material transport) operation even though #7 isn't far away from #9.

But you're an architect and can understand and that he came up with something like that isn't just about the fact he created such a wonderful hole out of #9, it could also have to do with how he saved or improved a routing and made a couple more holes a whole lot more interesting than they may've been if he hadn't thought of that.

If we ever go there together, I will show you what I mean starting from say #6 tee. He could've taken that hole somewhat more left, I guess, and then gone from there for #7 but neither hole and particularly #7 could never have been half so interesting as it is.

[TEPaul]

David Stamm:

You were at The Maidstone with Jon Spaulding when he took those very fine photos? When was that? If it was fairly recently and you didn't even tell me you were coming this way all I can say is bad, Bad BAD! You go to bed with no supper BOY!

[Jeff_Mingay]

Exactly Tom.

It's remarkably visionary; especially for a time when it wasn't as easy to move massive amounts of material around a site. Funny, too, that some people would undoubtedly put Maidstone up as a "poster child" for "minimalist" architecture; when, in reality, Park makes a MASSIVE cut in the 9th fairway to fill the 7th hole. Awesome stuff.

While we were building Sagebrush, in British Columbia -- which involved blasting rock and some pretty heavy earthmoving in places -- I'd joke with Rod Whitman, saying: "Finally! Some real golf course architecture!"

I look forward to an opportunity to visit Maidstone with you, Tom. Sounds like something to plan for 

[David Stamm]

David Stamm:

You were at The Maidstone with Jon Spaulding when he took those very fine photos? When was that? If it was fairly recently and you didn't even tell me you were coming this way all I can say is bad, Bad BAD! You go to bed with no supper BOY!

Sorry, Tom. We were only on Long Island for 3 days during the end of Sept. The next time I go to Philly, I will surely give you a call!