[JSPayne]

With this giant thread about the economy and how it effects golf courses, I had an interesting idea for an exercise.....

Since I am a super and obviously mainly concerned with economy effecting maintenance, and with the comments on the economy thread about the hopes that "great designs shouldn't cost that much to maintain," let's take a quick little poll about what posters here feel a "rock bottom" maintenance budget should be for a 110 acre, 18 hole regulation length golf course.

There are many variables, but keep this as general as you can. I've already done the math and come up with a number, but first I'm curious to see if the general populus can put a realistic number on "minimal maintenance costs".

Can to make a conjecture? If you want to be really fancy, break it down into labor and materials budget, and exclude water because that cost WILDLY varies throughout the country. Just price labor and golf course inputs from a maintenance perspective.

[John Kavanaugh]

Lawrence County Country Club, a Bendelow where I have been a member for 40 years, is a nine hole course with zoysia fairways and has a maintenance budget of under $100,000 including salaries and capital expenditures.  Throwing out economy of scale which would be achieved through 18 holes I will simply double that number to $200,000.

There is no reason in the world for any super to make over $35,000 per year in a seasonal climate with adequate support staff at around $10/hour down to minimum wage.  It is also simple to find older members who will cut grass and this and that for reduced fees or free carts.  Total labor should never exceed $100,000 which leaves ample money for fuel, equipment repair and very few chemicals.  This is a real world example in that we have a club with 200 members who pay $480/year in dues.  We once considered, and voted down, going to 18 holes because at most 10% of the membership would pay $1000/year for a private club.  btw...We all own our own carts for an additional $100/year trail fee.

Answer - $200,000 is an adequate budget.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Think it depends just how low you want to go... you could use sheep and mow only the greens say twice a week, one greenkeeper...you could certainly get away with this in the UK with an artisan type membership. It sounds crazy but we must just see a forced return to the 1930s style.

[Anthony Gray]

  JS,


  I am embarrassed to say I have no clue. I wonder how many avid golfers truly know the costs in maintaining a course. Great thread.



 

[JSPayne]

John,

Good examples......by seasonal climate I'm guessing you mean that the course is snowed over for a period of time? If so, how long are you accounting for the "golfing season"? Just asking to try and reference your numbers to the ones I came up with for a year-round golfing climate like we have here in CA.

Adrian,

Now you're REALLY going low. So low I think it might be a little unrealistic. Agreed we need to get back to more sustainable and minimal maintenance practices, but sheep on the fairways at Pebble Beach might be a little rough. What I'm really trying to get at is if you were looking at the lowest you could possibly go while keeping today's average course still in decent enough shape to keep people coming through the doors, what would you need?

Understandably this budget would cause the course to be more "rough around the edges" but should still be enough to maintain generally accepted mowing and maintenance requirements to keep grass playable, maintainable, and healthy.

[David_Tepper]

Are you including the cost of water in this budget estimate? It seems to me that would be the biggest variable in any budget, in terms of how much water a given course requires vs. how much rain it receives and the cost of that water. Is re-cycled water available at a lesser price?

[John Kavanaugh]

This is southern Illinois as deep as St. Louis on the Indiana border.  Greens would be cut April through November, known in construction circles as the classic Easter to Thanksgiving belt.  

[JSPayne]

David,

... and exclude water because that cost WILDLY varies throughout the country. Just price labor and golf course inputs from a maintenance perspective.

BTW, JK......our numbers are fairly close.....I'm waiting to see if anyone else knows of any decent tracks of a reputable nature that work on less than you've mentioned. I'll post my numbers with a somewhat detailed breakdown later........but be forewarned, such plans would NOT give the aesthetics and maybe not even the playability that your average paying golfer today would appreciate or maybe even accept. Sounds like you're lucky to have such a reasonable membership JK.

[Rick Sides]

I think most people have no idea how much it cost to maintain a course in good conditions.  Take into consideration labor costs, equipment, equipment repair, fertilizer, seed, sand, and I could go on and on.  If a course wants to look very nice, not just barely getting by like most munis, it can easily cost a few hundred thousand dollars.  

[David_Tepper]

JSPayne -

My bad re: cost of water. Sorry!

DT

[Anthony Fowler]

There is no reason in the world for any super to make over $35,000 per year in a seasonal climate with adequate support staff at around $10/hour down to minimum wage. 

This depends on how much you value your maintenance and the quality of work that you want out of your super.  You might be able to get something for 35,000, but if you really want good conditions then you should expect to pay a qualified person.  Many posters (I'm not sure about you John) frequently complain about supers that don't understand architecture, don't understand F&F, don't respond to the golfers preferences, etc.  Well, if you want a good super, fork out the dough.  You should expect to get what you pay for.

[Anthony Gray]

There is no reason in the world for any super to make over $35,000 per year in a seasonal climate with adequate support staff at around $10/hour down to minimum wage. 

This depends on how much you value your maintenance and the quality of work that you want out of your super.  You might be able to get something for 35,000, but if you really want good conditions then you should expect to pay a qualified person.  Many posters (I'm not sure about you John) frequently complain about supers that don't understand architecture, don't understand F&F, don't respond to the golfers preferences, etc.  Well, if you want a good super, fork out the dough.  You should expect to get what you pay for.

      A teenager mowing lawns in the summer makes 3000 dollars a month. Where is the appreciation for the supers. I would not want to belong to a club if the super only made 35,000.

[Bruce Katona]

Here in the East, given what is costs to live and what you need to pay in wages - $500,000 is a bare bones cost to keep a course in an above average muni  condition.

[John Foley]

I asked this question before and remeber that much of it has to do with the # of rounds played. Couldn't a low round private course get by w/ very few laborers?

If so how many? 3 or 4 incuding the super?

Would that work?

[Sean_A]

I am gonna go with $330,00 to keep a short private 18 hole course with smallish greens in decent (rough around the edges) condition for 12 months.  Of course, this would mean greens wouldn't be rolling at 11 - 9 would be a more realistic number at best.  I think an extra $100,000 would go a hell of a long way toward making the course in ideal condition without going ott.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

There is no reason in the world for any super to make over $35,000 per year in a seasonal climate with adequate support staff at around $10/hour down to minimum wage. 

This depends on how much you value your maintenance and the quality of work that you want out of your super.  You might be able to get something for 35,000, but if you really want good conditions then you should expect to pay a qualified person.  Many posters (I'm not sure about you John) frequently complain about supers that don't understand architecture, don't understand F&F, don't respond to the golfers preferences, etc.  Well, if you want a good super, fork out the dough.  You should expect to get what you pay for.

Anthony,

Who should make more...Your local country club super or the high school math teacher with a masters degree?  They are both seasonal jobs and even with your highfalutin ideals do not require equal educations.  Please note that getting paid $35,000 for a pleasant job working outside during warm weather is a dream around these parts where the median home price is under $50,000.  Our last guy, before we started hiring "young professionals" made at most $13,000 per year.  Of course we did give him a lifetime membership upon "retirement".

On another note:  If you want firm and fast just come to a rural course with a low budget.

[Buck Wolter]

I would think we’ll see many courses move to using a triplex on the greens versus ‘walk mowing’

[Anthony_Nysse]

Lawrence County Country Club, a Bendelow where I have been a member for 40 years, is a nine hole course with zoysia fairways and has a maintenance budget of under $100,000 including salaries and capital expenditures.  Throwing out economy of scale which would be achieved through 18 holes I will simply double that number to $200,000.

There is no reason in the world for any super to make over $35,000 per year in a seasonal climate with adequate support staff at around $10/hour down to minimum wage.  It is also simple to find older members who will cut grass and this and that for reduced fees or free carts.  Total labor should never exceed $100,000 which leaves ample money for fuel, equipment repair and very few chemicals.  This is a real world example in that we have a club with 200 members who pay $480/year in dues.  We once considered, and voted down, going to 18 holes because at most 10% of the membership would pay $1000/year for a private club.  btw...We all own our own carts for an additional $100/year trail fee.

Answer - $200,000 is an adequate budget.

  Oh Jaka, you make us all laugh. I guess roads should be paved for 1/2 price and you can absorb the cost of freights, fuels costs to make the products and insurance, not to mention the demands to have a very high end product.
  Not to take ANYTHING away from teachers, but last I knew, teaching is a 9 month job with weeks off for vacations and 1/2 days etc....

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Colonial CC
Ft. Worth

[JSPayne]

Anthony,

I'm never one to jump to JK's defense, as I still am trying to find out what his real beef with superintendents in general is, but I don't think his number is that far off......

He makes the teacher to super comparison because he's talking about seasonal employment, which would essentially be equal but opposite with teachers taking the summer off and supers the winter. Using his 35K figure, a year-round golfing climate like we have here in CA would adjust to a salary of around 47K. Granted they are few and far between and are mostly found at the munis or non-regulation length courses, but there are supers in CA making that much and getting the job done (how well is up for discussion).

However........John's response nows piques my curiousity to prompt another question.......where the hell are you where median home prices are $50K? That's barely a friggin down payment in CA!

If my house only cost that much I'd probably be fine with 35K as well!

[Anthony Gray]

 John and JS,

   You get what you pay for. I think if you require your greens to stay healthy and course conditions acceptable you need to pay the man.

  One more point. I personaly think that fairways in the US are watered too much. It lessens the weather factor in how the course is played. When it is dry the course plays hard and fast like John stated. As opposed to when it is wet. Doesn't this go back to the roots of the game?

[John Kavanaugh]

I love superintendents.  I even feel sorry for the young college educated guy with a closet full of pressed pants and new shirts who was promised unlimited budgets and adoring memberships.  I do not believe in the days ahead any course can expect a membership to pay more than $1,200 per member per year on a maintenance budget.  Ad in debt, food service, pro staff, clubhouse expense and this and that you have dues at $250/month if you are lucky enough to be full.

A real life comparison can be made when looking at the career paths of structural engineers who graduated, like me, in 1984.  I had friends who got the dream jobs of designing fighter planes for Macdonald Douglas and nuclear power stations for Bechtel.  Sadly for them, a few years later they are on the boring topics of roads, sewer and water like me.  Glory comes and goes but if you lay a sewer at 4% it will flow and payday will still be Friday.  I can't believe a super above questioned the value of our nations teachers when we all might consider getting a teaching certificate and getting on the government payroll before the rolls are full.

As far as house prices go, I live in a town which had 750 people in my high school when I graduated and has 300 now.  We are simply ahead of our time with 25% real unemployment and houses worth less than three years property tax.  It ain't pretty but if you got a job, a running truck and 3/4's of your teeth you can get laid and a dog for the cost of the shots.  Who gets the shots is your call.

[John Kavanaugh]

You get what you pay for. I think if you require your greens to stay healthy and course conditions acceptable you need to pay the man.

I can not think of a single occupation where high pay equates to quality of production.  What good is a fancy education going to be if there is no budget to implement fancy ideas?

[Anthony Gray]

I can not think of a single occupation where high pay equates to quality of production.  What good is a fancy education going to be if there is no budget to implement fancy ideas?
[/quote]

  John.... Who do you want to do your surgery?......I hope someone with a fancy education and lives in a house that is more than 50,000 dollars.

[John Kavanaugh]

I can not think of a single occupation where high pay equates to quality of production.  What good is a fancy education going to be if there is no budget to implement fancy ideas?

  John.... Who do you want to do your surgery?......I hope someone with a fancy education and lives in a house that is more than 50,000 dollars.


[/quote]

I will worry about my surgeons income when I look up and see the nurses are hispanics of questionable citizenship.

[Anthony Gray]

  John.....great post......I will tell you this.. my club two years ago lost about five hispanic workers and the neatness of the course has suffered...



 

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