[Andy Troeger]

Matt,

How many of these Arizona courses would you see as top 100 level in the US? Both overall and "modern" using the GW cutoff? Just curious...there's quite of very good courses in AZ, but I'm sure how many are truly elite.

[Deucie Bies]

What does everyone think of The Rim?  I played it almost three years ago and my friend that I played with raved about it before we played, but I was not impressed.  Of course, it was 40 and windy when we played, but I did not see what was so great about the course.  The service at the club is great, but that does not make up for an average golf course in my opinion.  Thoughts?

[Matt_Ward]

Deucie Bies:

The Rim is the personification of eye-candy to the max. Sorry, to hear you played it on a cold and windy day -- but if you had played it on a sunny and fairly light wind day the views from the course of the nearby Mogollon Rim are spectacular.

No doubt you have comparisons of The Rim v Chapparal Pines and I see the latter as the better of the two. Some have opined (see comments from Andy) that CP is too narrow in plenty of spots. I paid attention to a great number of things when I was at CP and I didn't find the fairway corridors being that narrow -- there are more narrower courses in the Valley of the Sun if tightness is to be measured from the teeing areas.

The Rim does have its share of unique and fun holes -- personally I see the inner half as being a good bit better than the front side. The 10th thru 13th -- along with the final trio of holes is quite good.

Andy:

That's a touch question -- but likely 5-6 of the courses I mentioned would have a good shot in making my personal top 100 -- irrespective of a modern v classic tagline.

The problem for many people is that they see desert golf as limited -- some have taken what Doak said in CG and been brainwashed to believe that one desert course is akin to another.

Andy, you yourself mentioned that you have missed a fair number of the top tier private ones that were mentioned either by me or others. So don't make the quick assumption as others have that AZ golf is nothing more than a winter diversion untul better weather returns to much of the country.

Like I said before in my listing -- few people have ever weighed in on Rancho de los Caballeros in Wickenburg. It's a first rate course but because it's not right in Scottsdale it gets little attention.

Let's turn things around -- how many that you have played would make your personal top 100 ?

[Deucie Bies]

The Rim does have its share of unique and fun holes -- personally I see the inner half as being a good bit better than the front side. The 10th thru 13th -- along with the final trio of holes is quite good.

Thanks Matt.  Maybe I need to play it again because the only hole I slightly remember on the back is the one with the big boulder behind the green (13 maybe).  I don't remember the closing holes at all which for me is a telling sign.  I usually remember every hole on each golf course that I play.  Maybe by that point in the round, I just wanted to go in and start drinking! 

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
I do intend to play the Desert Mountain courses and Whisper Rock, but at the same time NONE of those make the Golf Digest top 10 and only one of the Whisper Rock layouts make Golf Week's Top 100, so while they very well might be better than the layouts I have seen, I have played 7 of the top 10 in Arizona per Golf Digest, plus Quintero which makes the GW list. I've actually played more courses in Arizona than I have Colorado, although the sample is pretty close. Without question I'll be in a stronger position to speak about things once I've played them all...assuming of course I ever get that opportunity.

Right now, only Forest Highlands Canyon would be a sure top 100 course to me from Arizona. There are a few others that would be top 100 "modern" layouts using the GW criteria--Saguaro and The Rim. Quite a few others are close, but would likely just miss. There are things I like about desert golf, but with Chapparal, Desert Forest, and even Seven Canyons the narrow corridors push them out of top 100 consideration for me. The three courses I do like are all wide enough that they don't become a lost-ball fest if one isn't on with the driver. Some folks don't mind that, but width is important especially with desert/brush on both sides of every hole.

[Forrest Richardson]

The original Papago would have been close (to a top ten spot.) Conditioning helps, which it never had except for the few opening years with bentgrass.

[Carl Nichols]

Jim "Bones" Mackay's top 3 Scottsdale courses are Whisper Rock (lower), We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro) and Greyhawk (Raptor).  http://www.golfweek.com/lifestyles/features/story/local-knowledge-scottsdale-102008. I'm not sure that's an entirely unbiased list!

[Jason Topp]

I'm very surprised to hear several people list the old Papago as a top 10 course in Arizona.  It was one of the two primary courses I played in college.  I really enjoy the course and think it is nearly ideal in terms of presenting a challenge to the good player while being playable for all.  Nonetheless, I did not see it as anywhere close to meriting that sort of acclaim. 

I'm not sure when it was built but the course seemed to me a lot like a million other 60's era courses - par 72, short par fives, long par threes, big greens and wide playing corridors.  I viewed it as similar to Randolph North in Tucson, Rio Rico in Nogales, McCormick Ranch in Scottsdale, Bunker Hills here in Minnesota, Jester Park in Des Moines, Finkbine in Iowa City and, I am sure, many other courses.  I would not hesitate to play any of the courses on that list but would never identify them as standouts worthy of high ranking. 

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

You need to break out from this "what does Digest have to say" in its own rankings. Digest is not the be-all / end-all.

The simple fact is that Desert Mountain actually is shortchanged by what Digest and Golfweek have spouted forward as top tier stuff in the desert.

I said this before -- Nicklaus did a superlative job in bringing desert golf to life -- following the years before steps of what Red Lawrence did w Desert Forest. If you like Desert Highlands then Jack's work goes a number of steps forward with the likes of Chiricahua and Outlaw, to name just two there at DM.

Whisper Rock is also a must play and the work by Mickelson and Stephenson is well done -- ditto what Tom Fazio did there as well.

Interesting to point out that your inclusions for a top 100 position are primarily non-desert located courses (e.g. Forest Highlands / Canyon & The Rim) although you thrown into the picture We-Ko-Pa's Saguaro Course. Still can't fathom how you see Saguaro ahead of Vista Verde but I digress.

[Greg Clark]

Ah, a mention of Finkbine in Iowa City.  Now that truly warms this Hawkeye's heart.  Well done Jason.  I haven't thought about Bunker Hills in years.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

You asked me a short time back on this thread for a listing of courses that Joe Sixpack types could play -- I'm guessing you were asking for courses that are open to the public on a daily basis.

Off the top of my head I would say the following would be a good starting point - in no particular order ...

Vista Verde

The Raven at Verrado

SunRidge Canyon

Apache Stronghold (a courtesy consideration even if the turf is nothing more than so-so

We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)

Raven at Verrado

Talking Stick (North)

Arizona National

StoneRidge

Grayhawk / Raptor

I reserve the right to add or delete a course once my memory sharpens after the wind I've had tonight with friends !

p.s. I don't count a place like Los Caballeros as being really public because it doesn't have direct public access unless you are staying there. Maybe someone can update me if what I just said is inaccurate.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt

Los Caballeros is semi- private with members and resort play taking priority tee times:

www.loscaballerosgolf.com/rates.html

The prime season rack rate of $200 is comparable to WeKoPa, Grayhawk, etc

[Andy Troeger]

I'd add Gold Canyon's Dinosaur Mountain to the public listing. Longbow's probably not top ten but its a good value for the area.

[Matt_Ward]

One of the issues is to decipher what courses are really 100% public -- those such as Los Caballeros aren't really public in the broadest sense of the definition and I'd likely leave them off.

What's really interesting is how far the Troon North model has fallen when you see the growth of other CCFAD and other public courses throughout the Valley of the Sun area. Troon North in the early 90's was really THE place touted by many -- that's not the case now.

One other sleeper choice for public play I'd recommend just below the ones I previously listed would be Superstition Springs -- gets little attention fro many but the layout has held up well.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
Troon North is still pretty highly regarded by most folks, although I agree it doesn't have the prestige that it had when it was a new facility. It seems like We-Ko-Pa is "the" place in the valley, but Grayhawk and Troon North still seem to have strong name recognition.

I only played the "New Pinnacle" at Troon North and didn't find it to be that impressive--the housing is relatively intrusive.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The issue I saw early on with Troon North was the playability issue. When you limited yourself to only 90 acres of land that you can irrigate you leave open the possibility that players accustomed to playing their wide misses can find them is certainly an issue.

I've often found the resort play at Troon North really CRAWLS.

The changing of the course to a new configuration really didn't add much to either of the "new" layouts. Those who still see TN as cutting edge stuff likely have not played the wider assortment of courses that have opened since then. Frankly, Vista Verde is light years ahead of TN in my mind.

[Ryan Farrow]

Matt, The Dunes is now public... so I think you can/would add that to the list.

I would also say you need to visit the recently renovated Papago. From the photos on their website things look a whole lot better. It is most certainly an all around top10 public in AZ now. I still say it was  before hand.(Although it looks like you disagree)

Finally played the Raven at Verrado a couple of weeks ago. It would just sneak in my top 10 for now (you listed it twice). The bunkering was very strategic and unique / especially for AZ. Good price and everything else was pretty not bad. It just didn't stand out that much from the rest of the desert golf I have seen. AND the par 3's were a big letdown.

And we have had the TSN and Vista argument before. I will just let that absurd comment slide.  I think they are both wonderful courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Fair enough.

I liked Royal Dunes in its former life as a men's only club -- no doubt the financials have changed that genesis to what it is today.

In regards to Papago I'll check it out the next time I'm in the area but I have to say that the original layout -- I played it a few times -- was more about nostaglia than anything that was really compelling.

If anything, Troon North opened the door to golf in the more exciting terrain areas of the desert.

Glad to hear you played Raven at Verrado -- sorry to have listed it twice. Agree with you on the par-3 side -- but the overall qualities of the property are nicely done and the playability issue is not as brutal as it is with some of the other courses in the greater Valley area. Be curious to know your thoughts on the closing hole there -- I liked it a lot because it puts a mega premium on quality driving.

One final thing -- my argument was about TN - and how it shakes out against the likes of VV. It was not about TSN. Got it.

[Ryan Farrow]

Matt, maybe it takes a couple of plays for one to understand what makes Papago so great?  Again, disappointed with the par 3's there. (IMO they all needed a major overhaul / back to the renovation vs. restoration but lets be honest here, they were are all pretty lame - AND THE EXACT SAME YARDAGE!!!!!)

Agree with Troon North. Its golf in a spectacular setting. Not a whole lot more. But I'm a sucker for a nice setting. And green grass.


Fairway width at Verrado is a nice change of pace, but I still lost a ton of balls. 18 was not that great. I was confused for a minute because I started off on 10 and finished at 9. I thought for a minute that hey, this Ward guy really knows what hes talking about.

#9 played as you described 18. And I thought it was a much better hole.

[Andy Troeger]

I'd be interested to see Papago again post-renovation. To be honest while I liked the course, I wonder if it would be seen as positively if it were in the midwest where the style of the course would make it another good solid layout as opposed to its stark contrast with the surrounding desert layouts. I don't remember many details of specific holes as being particularly memorable. Its certainly much more affordable to play, although if I saw correctly the out-of-town rates now are much higher than they were previously?

I'd put Vista Verde comfortably ahead of TSN and TSN comfortably ahead of Troon North. I can see how Troon North was probably a beautiful site prior to all the home building, but now most of the vistas are blocked. There are a few good hole such as the 10th-12th on the "New Pinnacle," but the houses are very much in play in other areas (including one at the corner of the dogleg of the very first hole on the new configuration).

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

I would need to see what the "new" Papago is about now. Frankly, Forrest Richardson expressed his disappointment that the place opted to forego the past and simply decided to insert new elements as they saw fit. Possibly Forrest can elaborate further when he sees with this thread.

I didn't find the "original" Papago to be that compelling. No doubt being the prime course for so long -- before the Scottsdale development boom took hold -- made a big time differences for those coming to the Valley area to see such courses.

Regarding the closer at Verrado -- don't know if they switched the nines but the last hole from my memory was roughly 490 yards / par-4 with water pinching in the drive zone when you got past the 280 yard mark.
A real demanding drive and approach are called upon.

Andy:

You hit the nail squarely on the head -- memorability being an issue for you is one small but clear reminder that such a course is not that great. Papago is more about yesteryear -- like I said I'll be happy to see what's there now to see if it's worth mentioning with all the newer layouts that have opened in the last 25-30 years.

The issue with TN is that it's overly penal for those who can't hit ball relatively straight on a number of holes. The drive zones do pinch in and the newer configuration really didn't add much to the time spent there.

Give Troon North credit for pushing the envelope for those who really had not seen or desire to play in the desert areas in and around Pheonix / Scottsdale. It's just that in my mind the desert golf alternatives that have come on board since then have simply driven miles beyond what is there now.



 

[Forrest Richardson]

Having not been there yet, I reserve all opinions. Others have said that there were quite a few wholesale changes and, if that is true, it seems disappointing considering Papago had some very solid, yet subtle, parts. Since I was not involved in the re-building I think it best judgement is reserved.

[Ryan Farrow]

Matt, here is 9:





Here is 18:





As to Papago...........if you didn't think it was good before hand then you really weren't on your game. It was one of those places where you said to yourself, wow if they actually took care of it, this could be one of the best courses in the state.


And IMO I would have forgone the past in some spots. The original course looked great, it was still good as of last year, but foregoing the past could have made it legendary. I'm talking about incorporating lost strategy, washes, and adding new bunkering on most holes. The rest could have been left untouched.... The greens were great, views, fairway contours, most green sites....

[Jonathan Cummings]

Matt - you would put Gallery N over Gallery S??  Why? 

JC

(I haven't played Silverleaf)

[Tom Yost]

The thing about Papago, it's definitely understated, especially after visiting the newer, flashier CCFAD's like Troon N., etc.  But there is something intangible about the old school feel that allows it to stand up to the more modern layouts.

I played Papago a lot when I first moved to town, but gradually stopped going due to the deteriorating conditions and slow pace of play.  I went out there last year for the first time in about ten years and was really (re)captured by the layout, enough that I returned to play it several more times before they closed it for the remodel.

It may be one of those "the whole is greater than the sum of the parts" things.  No holes really stand out as "great holes," and I agree that the par 3's were mundane.  Nonetheless, it is an excellent core routing that flows over and makes use of the natural rolling terrain, offers city and mountain views,  and had great greens.   It was also interesting to see a large number of walkers playing the course.  All these things add up to give Papago a more traditional feel and flavor that is sometimes lacking in the newer courses especially those that are routed through the housing developments and involve mostly cart riding.

I'm hoping to get out there to see the results of the renovation soon but until then, I'm not going to weigh in on whether is belongs on the Arizona top 10 public list. 

---

As for the Raven @ Verrado - I've played it only twice but really liked it.  Wide playing corridors and a variety of holes that present playing options from both the tee and the approach, many greens that offer run-up/ground game possibilities.  The course was maintained firm and fast both times I was out there.  The downside is it is a real estate cartball type of course. 

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