[Forrest Richardson]

I'm getting some noise now, so I am going to turn this thing off.

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

The thread simply outlines the best courses I have played in AZ -- it didn't break them down further by specific category or the like.

You've placed the tag "sizzle courses" to define what my list is about. Again, I don't know what that means because the courses I mentioned have unique elements that are a good bit different in plenty of ways.

When I referred to my statement that certain courses had "outlived their unique elements," it was meant as a combo that specific certain newer courses have taken what these past courses have done and carried out a few more steps. That's not to say the courses you mentioned are not unique -- but from the standpoint of grouping a listing like a top ten there has be a few layouts that don't make it.

You make the assumption that the ones I listed were "formula layouts." Again, without you taking the time to spell out what is deficient in the ones I listed this exercise of simply tagging phrases has no deeper meaning for a more developed disucssion.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt — I do like your list in many ways, but it seems homogenized and, frankly, looks like something I might read in a national magazine that is trying to cater to an ideal blend of high-end mixed with "can't lose" selections. But, I do like the courses you listed.

What I would love to see from a writer and rater with your credentials is more out-of-the-box, out-on-a-limb thinking. Stir it up man!

P.S.   From what I hear, Desert Forest may be losing its way — big maintenance budget, now overseeding...who knows, maybe they will add fairway bunkers next!?

(I'm probably not being specific...give me time.)

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

Again, you start down the path of one-word analysis -- "homogenized." I didn't include any course that I didn't personally play and the ones chosen were not meant to be a "high-end mixed with 'can't lose' selections."

They each are courses that provide high quality design that excels in using the existing terrain, routing and shotmaking diversity to be stellar places worthy of a play.

Would love to purse your "out-of-the-box", "out-on-a-limb thinking." But you hit the nail squarely on the head -- I need you to be a bit more specific. One you do that I'll try to accomodate.

p.s. Interesting how you mentioned what is happening at DF -- maybe others who know more or have played there very recently can comment.

[Joe Hancock]

I have never been to AZ.

I keep checking this thread in hopes that Mr. Farrow will step back into the ring with both feet and explain his position.

Joe

[Ryan Farrow]

sorry guys.... I have been verrrrrrrry busy lately.

Mr. Ward, I will always be here to annoy you and question your every thought. 

But seriously, if you do not think Papago deserves an honorable mention than you are doing a serious disservice to anyone who respects your opinions. Having such an interesting course at such a low price, so close to a major airport, is kinda worth noting. You know, for all those Joe Six packs and Joe the Plumbers out there, that golly gee, just can't afford to play at all those fancy clubs that you have listed in your top ten!

I must also say, I have not played any of the courses that Matt Ward has listed in his top 10.  That, I find ironic.


So heres my AZ Top 10 that I have played (since for some reason, some people actually want to know):

1) Talking Stick North
2) We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)
3) Royal Dunes
4) Papago Park
5) Vista Verde
6) Troon North
7) TPC Scottsdale
........ and thats about where the list ends for me

[Jason Topp]

sorry guys.... I have been verrrrrrrry busy lately.


So heres my AZ Top 10 that I have played (since for some reason, some people actually want to know):

1) Talking Stick North
2) We-Ko-Pa (Saguaro)
3) Royal Dunes
4) Papago Park
5) Vista Verde
6) Troon North
7) TPC Scottsdale
........ and thats about where the list ends for me

Ryan:

I do not see my college staple, Ken MacDonald, on the list.

[Ryan Farrow]

Jason, I am within walking distance of Kenny Mac.



I played it once.... and lets just say I don't like playing golf enough to ever play it again, there are other things I would rather do with my time!

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Saw your listing - you might be able to help me with my confusion from your earlier posts ...

"Positively, Bar-None, The most Absolutely, Ridiculous list I have ever seen, 10 X's Worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine."

And ...

"I must also say, I have not played any of the courses that Matt Ward has listed in his top 10. That, I find ironic."

You see Ryan I have a hard time comphending when people say my list is "(r)idiculous" and "worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine when the person making such comments has not played a good samplying of the ones I've listed.

You did raise a fair point -- but it was not a part of the title for this particular thread -- about listing AZ golf options that are affordable. No doubt if such a listing were created the names of the courses on that list would be a good bit different than the ones which appeared on my mine. 

I've played nearly all the ones you listed -- for what it's worth I would throw into the mix with the criteria you mentioned a Ken Kavanaugh layout called del Lago which is just outside of Tucson.

[Tom Yost]

Jason, I am within walking distance of Kenny Mac.

I played it once.... and lets just say I don't like playing golf enough to ever play it again, there are other things I would rather do with my time!

Hey now, Kenny Mac is a solid muni.  Not the greatest site with the nearby power plant and power lines, but a good mix of holes and nice greens.   Honestly, I'd rather play the Mac than the Raven at S. Mountain which I played today.   I've played the Raven about a half dozen times and even after playing it just this morning, I still cannot recall a single hole or interesting feature on that course.   Biggest waste of $$ ever  (at least today's event was a corporate outing that was comped).

[Ryan Farrow]

Tom, I am not going to argue with you about South Mountain, more than anything the whole "style"  really turns me off, along with the high price tag. But the strategies which are present make for some solid golf holes... just not my cup of tea.

Also, you can have Kenny Mac all you want, but as an overall golf experience with the roads, power stations, homes, muni conditioning.... I think I'll just sit that one out. Sure, its somewhere to hit the ball around for dirt cheap, but i didn't get into this game or this profession on that premise alone.



Matt, if you took my previous comments seriously, after I have stated that "I have never played any of those courses", then lets just keep the crazy going!!!!!!

I can't argue with the courses in your list, but I can call your list elitist!

Just for fun could you name your Top 10 list for the Joe Six-Packs of Arizona.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

Del Lago is a Nugent design, not Kavanaugh. I played there before the housing was built and thought it was a quality course and would compare favorably to many in the PHX area. Now, with the housing, I wouldn't know.

I generally don't like " Best Lists" when public and private courses are both included. Strange as it may seem, I haven't played that many privates in AZ. Of the ones that I have played, Desert Forest is at the top. I have not played Forest Highlands. I have played Blackstone, Mirabel, Briarwood,Ancala, Terravita,Seven Canyons,Desert Mountain Geronimo and Renegade,Silverleaf, The Gallery North,Tonto Verde(both courses) and Quintero(where my wife had a hole in one.)

As far as the publics are concerned, if you choose to bifurcate them by "value" that's ok. I've played a lot of publics and any "Best List" should include Papago in anticipation of its reopening in December after renovation.

[Matt_Ward]

Ryan:

Appreciate your comments -- small suggestion. The next time place a smiley face after such a statement because it's easy for people to misunderstand if what you said was really in the manner you stated.

Back to the matter at hand ...

I'll certainly give it some thought on the creation of such a list for AZ. The problem is that prices do fluctuate greatly during the winter months when compared to other times. I'll review the landscape and see if something can be put forward. I'll certainly be looking for your comments after I post.

Steve:

Thanks for the correction on del Lago. If the housing has now entered the picture I'd be curious to see what effect has happened when I visit Tucson early next year. The price charged was more than reasonable when I first played there.

In regards to your second comment ...

I can appreciate your opinion -- but the title of this thread was the best overall in the state. If a similar list were created for Pennsy or Jersey the likelihood that privates would dominate the top of the charts is all but a certainty.

No doubt it would be a bit more helpful for those who can't access such private places to have info on other layouts where price and access are less of a stumbling block.

In regards to Papago -- it's best to wait to see what is there AFTER the opening. Too often hype that precedes anything tied to a course can often be a bit much. However, there are public layouts in the state that would be well worth playing -- one of my best sleepers is in the far north in Page called Lake Powell. Very much worth playing when in the area.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

The bones at Papago are very good. The recent pictures posted on the course website on the Papago Update thread show that the course has promise. It will probably open in December so you should try and play there.I won't be there until March.

Another sleeper course IMO is The Preserve at Saddlebrooke in Oro Valley, north of Tucson.

http://tucsongolf.com/tucson/courses/preserve/index.html

I think public play is still permitted there.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Thanks ...

The problem that I mentioned previously is that even the public places (save for those courses owned by the taxpayers - ergo, Papago) do experience price bumps up during the winter months if they are in the Valley of the Sun and Tucson areas.

[Jeff Fortson]

No one has mentioned Rio Rico down near Nogales.  The front-9 might be RTJ's best work ever (except for the first 5 holes at Spyglass). 

Matt:

I have to agree that leaving Papago off your list makes a big hole in it for me.  I think it's one of the best public courses in the country.


Jeff F.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I understand what you say -- but the title of this thread was the BEST overall courses in all of AZ. Yes, the reality is that private and high end resort courses will dominate that listing but that's not really news -- at least to me and others.

The available $$ when they were built and having the wherewithal to hire the top design talent has allowed that reality to come into being. This is coupled with the fact that often these sites have the best land too.

I mentioned to Ryan I will think about the current AZ landscape and see what more affordable golf options there are. Thanks for mentioning Rio Rico in Nogales. Papago is certainly a contender when price is factored. However, if you truly believe Papago is among the top ten irrespective of price then you and I will part company.

[Forrest Richardson]

I will be very interested in what the GCA treehouse things of Papago. It is headed for a criticism because nothing they did involved old plans or Wm. F. Bell's or Jack Snyder's records, plans or notes. In a nutshell it is a reinterpretation based on whatever the AGA and Company wanted to see. I laughed my _____ off when I read that the design team poked around in the soil because there were no old plans to refer to! That was one of the funniest press accounts I have ever read in any golf course related story. I almost cried myself to sleep with laughter.

[Mike_Cirba]

I will be very interested in what the GCA treehouse things of Papago. It is headed for a criticism because nothing they did involved old plans or Wm. F. Bell's or Jack Snyder's records, plans or notes. In a nutshell it is a reinterpretation based on whatever the AGA and Company wanted to see. I laughed my _____ off when I read that the design team poked around in the soil because there were no old plans to refer to! That was one of the funniest press accounts I have ever read in any golf course related story. I almost cried myself to sleep with laughter.

Forrest,

Your comment makes me even more regretful that I missed playing Papago when I was out there a few years back, prior to the re-do.

I hear your frustration.

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

Given your knowlegde of Papago -- prior to whatever work is being done now -- do you see the "new" version as being worthy of acclaim? Or were you comments from your last post more of a fear on what takes place now?

I can remember the old version fairly well - played the course twice the last time being 12 years ago.

From what you have said I infer you believe a sympathetic restoration, at minimum, should be the goal -- not some sort of reinterpretation. Be curious to know because when you posted your first comments on this thread tied to the best in AZ golf -- you didn't mention Papago -- and I'm guessing it was tied to the original design elements.

Comments?

[Forrest Richardson]

I think it is a shame, travesty, disrespect and outright malpractice that the powers-that-be said there were no original plans to refer to in the process. All one needs to do it read the original proposal of the developer/manager to see that they knew full-well that original plans and data were in-hand and available.

I have not seen the course, so I am not evaluating it. But whenever I hear such garbage it leads me to believe the whole process is flawed. I detest flawed processes.

[Matt_Ward]

Forrest:

You didn't answer what I asked.

[Forrest Richardson]

I have not seen the new version, so I am not the guy to ask about its virtues. It is a shame that, apparently by all accounts, the "new" Papago did not get the benefit of a study of what Bell (and Snyder) originally designed and built. No mater what changes are made to a course, a look to the past is always helpful and often enlightening.

[Jonathan Cummings]

In no order..

The Rim
Desert Forest
Whisper Rock (lower)
Apache Stronghold
Stone Canyon
Gallery - South
Desert Mt - Outlaw
Forest Highlands - Canyon
Talking Stick - N
7 Canyons

[Matt_Ward]

Jonathan:

If you have played Silverleaf can you tell me why you would place Seven Canyons ahead of it?

Weiskopf got the benefit in having plenty of drop dead gorgeous off-site terrain with the latter -- but the design details for variety of holes is found, at least for me, with the layout in Scottsdale.

Comments ?

Forrest:

Thanks.

Last question -- do you see the original Papago if properly restored as being one of the ten best courses in AZ and if so why ?

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