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Matt_Ward

AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« on: October 24, 2008, 12:28:00 AM »
One of the more unique states that has grown in terms of overall golf development (at least until the most recent of times) is Arizona.

As many people will be making their winter plans I have been reviewing the many different courses I have played in the Grand Canyon State over the last 25 years.

No doubt there's been plenty of people who have influenced the overall scene but I have to say that Jack Nicklaus has been the key figure in bringing to life the many unique elements tied to desert golf.

No doubt desert golf will not be everyone's cup of tea. The 90-acre max rule does place a major limitation on just what can be done there. Nonetheless, the state has clearly sought to add its own dimension to the golf picture here in the USA.

With that in mind I'm prepared to leap off the cliff of public opinion and present my choices for the best layouts I have played in the state.

1). Desert Mtn / Chiricahua (Scottsdale)

Came later (Match 1999) in the mix of different courses Team Nicklaus has brought to life at this unique complex of layouts all under one roof through the vision of Lyle Anderson. Truly has the best routing and most diverse holes one can play in the state. The land provides a real intersection with the desert and the first three holes start the round in grand fashion. The short par-4 2nd at 290 yards still rates for me one of the very best short par-4 holes Team Bear has brought forward.

Jack also has included his usual strong par-4 ensemble and the back-to-back 9th and 10th at 485 and 427 yards are both stellar holes.

No doubt Nicklaus deserves credit for introducing his style with Desert Highlands but it is Chiricahua that takes what he did there 17 years earlier and brings it to the fullest completion.

2). Forest Highlands / Canyon (Flagstaff)

Tom Doak said it best with his course analysis in CG. When it opened it demonstrated the capacity to have great golf in a locale that few had ever envisioned because of the very short season. Weiskopf / Moorish made it a point to include a number of par-3 holes in order to handle the amount of distance players can gain because of the elevation. Works quite well. The par-4 9th still possesses for me one of the most stunning settings for any golf hole in such a environment.

3). Desert Forest / Carefree

No doubt the course that paved new ground years before all the fanfare of desert golf actually took off. Credit to the club for keeping so much of its winning formula front and center. Desert Forest may turn off many people because you need to really handle one's tee game throughout the round. Slight mishits that may be playable with other layouts don't work out here as easily.

Got to say the 5th -- the par-4 at 453 yards is a real joy to play and one of the best holes to play in the Valley of the Sun vicinity.

4). The Estancia Club / Scottsdale

Without question, Tom Fazio's best efforts are here to see. The Estancia Club is also one of the best conditioned courses I have ever played. But the qualities of the layout go far beyond overall grooming. Fazio did a superlative job in routing the holes in and around the immediate area just under Pinnacle Peak. You have to work the ball and the combination of holes is quite good and the terrain encountered is really THAT good.

There's plenty to speak about at Estancia -- but I have always enjoyed the manner by which Fazio included holes that don't require much length but precise placement -- the uphill 342-yard 10th and the short 137-yard par-3 11th come quickly to mind. 

Tom Fazio is often the punching bag for many here on GCA -- if you really want to see him at his best then Estancia is one of those places that requires a visit for those fortunate to get on this gem.

5). Whisper Rock (Lower 18) / Scottsdale

Phil Mickelson and Gary Stephenson created some of the most thrilling greens you can play in the state with the original 18-hole layout at Whisper Rock. The greens aren't set above or below many of the actual fairways and you need to think especially hard to reach the optimum angles into the putting surfaces. Give credit to the duo for using a wash that criss-crosses a number of holes throughout the round.

Unfortunately, the course has somehow been lost in the shuffle with so many other new courses popping up into the scene. The second 18 -- by Tom Fazio -- makes for a 36-hole complex that is truly one of the very, very best in the USA that I have played. Although I list the original 18 as the pick I'd more likely include both courses for special recognition.

6). The GC at Chapparal Pines (Payson)

For those seeking a ponderosa pines location that combines beauty and golf design head to this marvel in Payson -- about 75 minutes from the Scottsdale area.

The Rim -- located across the street has been the layout that has drawn plenty of praise -- and its quite an eyeful -- but the sheer diversity of holes is a good step or two behind Chapparal Pines. Gary Panks, along with David Graham, have created a layout that ebbs and flows through the stunning landsite.

Forest Highlands / Canyon gets plenty of fanfare but Chapparal Pines is only a minor step behind in its overall presentation and quality.

7). Stone Canyon (Oro Valley)

Like Weiskopf, Jay Moorish was more identified through the time these two gents spent together. Plenty of their earlies collaborations have receivced plenty of ink but I see the work they carried forward in a solo capacity that is really noteworthy.

When you first play Stone Canyon it's hard to keep your jaw from falling off because of the dropdead beauty that you experience. Moorish combined the natural scenery with a membership course that is not a back breaker but has just enough of an edge to keep you on your game. The closing hole has to rate as one of the most beautiful I have played throughout all of AZ.

8). Silverleaf (Scottsdale)

When Weiskopf decided to move out on his own I was very much interested to see how he would fare. Silverleaf eschews the style of being seen as other desert courses are usually viewed as being especially demanding.

People often cite his other efforts -- Troon North / Monument w Jay Moorish usually comes to mind. Ditto the tandem's effort at Troon G&CC. But both of them pale when held against the likes of Silverleaf. Playability is front and center at Silverleaf but there's enough meat to make the course more than just some sort of post card picture fest.

Hard to ever forget the shared back tee area for the exciting and long par-3 16th and the demanding just under 500 yards finale.

Weiskopf provides plenty of preferred landing areas but getting to them requires a good bit of navigation from the player. At the same time, to his considerable credit, you don't get the punishing routine for the player who is not up to getting to those locations. One of the best examples in providng members with a course that has great elasticity and it's a quality that I have seen with a number of his courses since going solo in his design career.

9). Desert Mtn / Geronimo & Outlaw (Scottsdale)

I could not decide between the two so included them both for the 9th position. I was a real fan or the original Geronimo course -- the layout in its original form was a real bear (no pun intended) to play but it possessed so many fun and demanding holes. I really enjoy the starting hole there -- the par-5 provides an elevated view of the Tonto National Forest that abuts the property and it is quite a scene indeed.

Unfortunately, the folks at DM decided to abort the original par-4 13th at 478 yards and the darling and really exciting short par-4 14th at 329 yards. The latter was one of the best short holes that Nicklaus had created that I had played.

No doubt many might see the Geronimo as being just too demanding -- Doak's comments in CG said that. I always enjoyed the course because when it first opened it was so isolated from all the clutter -- you could truly enjoy the golf and the desert experience. The closing par-3 with the Geronimo statue in the back of the green brings you home in fine fashion -- just be sure to avoid the front left bunker.

Outlaw is the last course to have opened at DM and I am a big fan of the place because of non-design factors such as walking being permitted and the permanent absence of housing when playing the course. Nicklaus moved dramatically away from the aspects of aerial golf and high demand tee-to-green demands with holes that require more positioning and careful deliberation.

For some reason I hear many of the members don't like the course but I have to question if they see the benefit of firm and fast turf conditions and the manner by which Team Nicklaus created green sites that are as varied as any you can play throughout the state. Outlaw is pure fun golf -- the main deficient item that I see is the very narrow green encountered at the 338-yard 10th hole but that's just one small demerit among the total time spent there. Jack used double greens twice at the site and they are well done.

10). Rancho de los Caballeros (Wickenburg)

Gets little attention because of its somewhat remote location. Have to say among all the places I have ever visited in AZ, Rancho de los Caballeros provides the maximum array of different activities and offerings than any other facility that can be accessed by the public at-large. The golf is a design effort from Hardin & Nash and winds its way through the property without being overly crafted -- a common problem with so many other desert courses.

Honorable Mention in no particular order ...

Vista Verde
The Rim
Desert Highlands
The Gallery / North
Blackstone
Apache Stronghold (if they ever get it into consistent shape)

Andy Troeger

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2008, 01:07:24 AM »
Matt,
Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts. I haven't played at Desert Mountain or Whisper Rock so some of our play doesn't overlap. Have you played Seven Canyons or the newer Meadow layout at Forest Highlands? Both of those would make my top ten in Arizona. Pine Canyon in Flagstaff is supposed to be a good effort, but I haven't seen it yet.

Forest Highlands is my favorite course in Arizona by quite a bit. As you said, the 9th is amazing, and the 17th/18th stretch might be the best finishing two holes in the state. The par threes, while frequent in the middle of the round, are varied and all good holes. The 10th is my favorite of the bunch I think.

Ryan Farrow

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2008, 01:36:27 AM »
No mention of Papago Park!!!!


Positively, Bar-None, The most Absolutely, Ridiculous list I have ever seen, 10 X's Worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine.






Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2008, 10:45:23 AM »
Ryan:

Appreciate your noise making.

Please knock yourself out and post your listing.

Be most curious to try to understand your thinking.

Andy:

I've played the other courses you mentioned. Seven Canyons is stunning for the off-site scenery but the overall layout is less than what Weiskopf has done elsewhere. I am also not a fan of the amount of trees encountered there and how close they do intrude on a few holes.

You need to play the layouts at DM and WR -- they represent for me at least a real connection to what bonafide desert golf can be like. I've played Pine Canyon in Flagstaff and it's a fine layout from Jay Moorish -- just not as good for me at least -- as the original 18 at Forest Highlands and Chapparel Pines. Ditto for the Meadows at Forest Highlands -- I liked the layout but the first two choices I have mentioned for golf designs within the framework of the ponderosa pines is a good bit better with fewer weaker holes.

I do concur with you about the original 18 at FH. First rate design with plenty of interesting shotmaking situations.

John Foley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2008, 10:50:49 AM »
Matt - Thanks - very good stuff.

Two questions..

- what holds back Stone Canyon from being #1?? I thought it was out of theis world.

- why no WeKoPa? I liked CHolla alot but though Saguaro was off the charts.

Those two would be my 1 & 2 just curious what you think.
Integrity in the moment of choice

Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2008, 11:10:46 AM »
John:

You've asked a few good questions ...

I really do like what Jay Moorish has done since going solo from TW. It seems both men have enjoyed the space from each other.

John, I have to know if you have played the others I have placed before SC? Each of them was chosen because they offer a more complete presentation of design and desert experience for the entire 18 holes.

Keep in mind, that the gap between the first few courses is quite close -- I'd say that until you get past SC on my listing that the gap is quite narrow -- just a few differentiations I consider to be important.

Stone Canyon is held back because they do have a few holes where forced lay-up are mandated. If I can recall correctly -- the 2nd hole is one such example. I'm not a fan of taking the driver out of the hands of the player. I believe the 11th is another one but I can review my notes when I have a bit more time. No doubt there are a few holes that knocked my socks off -- the par-3 6th comes to mind quickly. Clearly man's hand was involved with its creation but it fits the land and is a true joy to play. The par-3 9th is also well done as it sits in the natural canyon below the tee box.

John, I also loved the final trio of holes. The long par-3 16th provides a testing approach which is then followed by a short and dangerous par-4 of just under 315 yards from the tips. The finale is one of the most gorgeous scenes one can get when in the desert environment.

In regards to We-Ko-Pa -- I like what Scott Miller did with the original 18. In fact, I see the totality of holes there to better than Saguaro which is really a cut'n paste of what I have seen from C&C before with other designs. In fact, the entire front nine is really a bore to me when playing it. The best holes come later in the round and they are in fact really solid for the last 6-7 holes. One other thing -- my enthusiasm was also tempered because the place is generally over-watered to the extent any meaningful bounce of the ball is negated.

For public choices I see the Ken Kavanaugh layout at Vista Verde as the better choice. The holes are more varied and more consistent from 1st tee shot to last putt. Just realize that the courses you mentioned are not chump change places to play for those wishing to do so - these are simply my own preferences and recommendations.


John Foley

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 11:28:13 AM »
Matt - No have not played anything on the top of your list ahead of Stone Canyon.

I do agree that taking the driver out of your hands is something I don't like, I can live with it one maybee twice a round.

Agreed on 16-18 being a wonderfull streach. I liked the short 6th (thought the waterfall is just stupid - the hole with out the faterfall would be great) but the par 3 9th has got to be one of the great views in all of golf.

As for WeKoPa - I did like Miller's course, it had a few very good holes ( long par 5 & short par 4 combo) I thought the par 3's we're weak.

Saguaro though had some great dramatic elevation changes and the great C&C greens which Cholla lacked for the most part. Is it too similar in style to other C&C courses - maybe - but the greens and the routing to take advantage of the elevation made it world class. I also like the mix of wide & narrow they used. Much more variety then anything else in the desert that I have seen.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 11:29:50 AM by john_foley »
Integrity in the moment of choice

Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 02:14:55 PM »
John:

Thanks for the comments - however, I don't see any elements at Saguaro being worthy of the tag "world class" as you stated. To each his own. I don't know if you have played Vista Verde but the overall layout there, the complexity of the routing and the more diverse elements for shotmaking are all in abundance there.

Too much of Saguaro -- especially much of the front and nine and a smaller part of the early holes of the back are really a major letdown for me. I've played a good share of other C&C courses and Saguaro really doesn't advance the ball for me.

Again, I don't know if you have played Vista Verde thus far -- if you have -- I'd like to know how you stack them up against one another.

C&C have done much better than Saguaro -- it seems to me their overall reputation is what drives much of the fanfare tied to their layout there.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 02:24:09 PM »
Matt:

Thanks for the list.  What is your view of Ventana Canyon - Mountain?

Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 02:31:56 PM »
Jason:

Liked the course but it's need of an upgrade. Some of the bunkers look tired and adding a few extra yards to a fe wkey holes is needed given the surge of yardage since the course first opened years and years ago.

For a bit of time the famed par-3 3rd hole was out of play because of issues tied to its overall maintenance. Still enjoy the hole for what it provides.

I also like the routing because you do get taken to all parts of the property.

When the Mountain Course first opened it was clearly a major player in terms of overall golf quality. The greater stretch of golf that lies on I-10 going going from Phoenix to Tucson has certainly multiplied many times over and I have noticed the increase of top tier layouts.

The good news about the Mountain at Ventana is that you can access the course. One of the sad elements of the courses I listed was how little outside access one can get unless you are with a member. Fortunately, the Tucson area has a good bit more depth on the pay to play golf options for those who are in the area.

Be curious to know -- how do you see the course when held against the others you have played in AZ ?




Tony Petersen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 02:54:25 PM »
No mention of Papago Park!!!!

Positively, Bar-None, The most Absolutely, Ridiculous list I have ever seen, 10 X's Worse than any readers poll list could ever imagine.


Farrow, oh ye of the 10-handed grip it & rip it... Love ya, man, but I think that you & Ward have issues... Seriously, of the courses that Matt mentioned overall, how many have you played? I have played all of them more than a few times, and can say that it's a pretty solid list when it comes to it... You have a limited palette in AZ which lends itself to so so golf IMHO... But, I played Chiri yesterday, playing DF on Saturday and Los Cab on Sunday, so I have to agree with Ward for the most part... Pine Canyon is fun, and I played Stronghold last week and forgot how much FUN that design is... Takes the front-9 to figure out the green speeds, but after that... ;)

TP
Ski - U - Mah... University of Minnesota... "Seven beers followed by two Scotches and a thimble of marijuana and it's funny how sleep comes all on it's own.”

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2008, 03:02:39 PM »
Jason:

Be curious to know -- how do you see the course when held against the others you have played in AZ ?


Matt:

Because my family lived in Tucson for 20 years I have probably played Ventana Mountain 40 times.  I have always really enjoyed the course.  I think the finish is very strong and the routing does a great job of creating variety on a site with a ton of sideslope.  I also think the setting hard against the mountain with views of the city is difficult to beat and the course offers nice variety in terms of holes that provide birdie opportunities and holes that offer more difficult challenges.  I think the 3rd hole is adds little to the quality of the course other than allowing the player to visit a unique location.

By contrast, my experience with Estancia, Desert Highlands and Chiricaua is limited to two visits each.  

I am very surprised at your listing of Chiracaua as the best in the state.  I thought the course was a very difficult test of iron play but provided relatively little in the way of interest off the tee.  In general I recall very wide fairways with relatively little advantage for taking a risk on one side or the other.  Also, perhaps because I was not familiar enough with the hole - the 2nd seemed very goofy.

I really enjoyed Estancia and particularly appreciated a walkable course.  The greens on that course were brutally difficult.

I hesitate to provide any meaningful commentary on Desert Highlands.  It has been a while and I mainly remember an unfortunate encounter with a jumping Cholla.

Subjectively, I prefer Ventana.  That viewpoint definitely reflects my familiarity with the course.





Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 05:08:22 PM »
Tony P:

Thanks for your comments.

I'd be curious to know your personal top ten in AZ since you've played a number of them several times.

I think one of the main sleepers for any AZ listing is the gem located in Wickenburg. Your comments?

Jason:

A few comments to your last post ...

The Mountain Course at Ventana is indeed a unique place and frankly the overall setting of Tucson in general offers a good bit more topograhical distinction from much of the greater Phoenix area.

In regards to your comments on Chiricahua it's important to remember that width is indeed part and parcel when playing the course. It's not as narrow or penal as you see w Desert Forest from a tee shot perspective. With that said, there is an added call for extra length on quite a few of the holes there.

Jason, you memory may be a somewhat clouded because Jack designed a number of the greens at Chiricahua with particular access points from key areas of each fairway. For example, the 1st is better played from the left side of the fairway. However, plenty of people want to cheat closer and closer to the right side to get more of a favorable bounce down the hill.

You say the 2nd is "very goofy." Really? I found the hole to be a tempting target to go after a score of bogey or worse on the tough opener. The green is set in a bowl-like setting and frankly the biggest risk is not being short -- but actually hitting it over. If that happens, the comeback chip or pitch shot is extremely demanding as it should be. Even if you lay up it's no bargain because the pitch shot must be judge correctly for both distance and height.

Keep in mind, the nature of how Jack changes the pace of the round so dramatically with the first three holes. The first is a long par-4 that goes downhill -- the 2nd is a well done (at least I see it that way) short par-4 (so many times GCA people think the short par-4 is only the domain of the Doak's, C&C's of the design world). The par-5 3rd is a real gamble hole. The bigger hitters can try to hit down the far right side and flirt with the barranca. Those who go too far left have to think especially what to do with the 2nd shot to position themselves for what they hope will be an easier 3rd.

One of the advantages Jack had w Chiricahua is that the previous courses from DM have many aspects incorporated into the design there. Driving the ball is a must item when playing Chiricahua -- so many other desert courses if they feature driving of the ball it almost always is from the "let's narrow the fairways" to the point of being a bowling alley. Not so at Chiricahua - you can take a healthy cut with the big stick but positioning must also be included. Take the long par-4 9th and 10th holes -- both are opposites of each other and both are extrenely demanding holes that start immediately when you arrive at the tee box. Sure, power can be rewarded but you need to soften your approach shot by coming from a particular angle to get nearer to the pin.

Jason, I don't know if you have played Geronimo -- especially the original version -- because although Doak hit on it in his comments in CG for being so demanding I thought the juxtaposition of sheer desert beauty plus the shotmaking bar which is still quite high will certainly not be everyone's cup of tea. Candidly, if someone doesn't have Chiricahua as their top course I can certainly understand particular differences of opinio - however - I'd be amazed if people did not have it easily among the top five in the state. Just one man's opinion.


Tom Yost

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2008, 05:53:24 PM »
It's been a few years since I've been out to Los Caballeros, but it is one of my favorites and is definitely a course that flies "under the radar."

It's best attribute are the greens.  It also makes nice use of the natural terrain.  There are a few blah holes on the back nine but overall a strong test.

The course is credited to Hardin and Nash and I believe these guys are proteges of Red Lawrence.  I think the greens and bunkering at Los Caballeros reflect the Lawrence style.

Andy Troeger

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2008, 08:36:00 PM »
Interesting comments overall...

Stone Canyon has some wonderful holes, but I thought both par fives on the back nine were clunkers. The 15th with its zig-zag fairway struck me as one of the worst holes I've seen on an otherwise great course. It would likely make my top ten in state, but barely.

I liked Desert Highlands quite a bit, pleasant surprise with some interesting holes and use of the semi-maintained waste areas that flowed into bunkers. Different look, but I liked it and the first hole is a fun starter.

Estancia is also a nice Fazio. I wouldn't put it in the US top 100, but certainly top 5-6 in Arizona.

I'm with John F. and others on We-Ko-Pa Saguaro. I've got a fairly limited sample of C & C courses played, but I'd put it #2 in the state behind FH Canyon of what I've played. Vista Verde is very good, but I'll take We-Ko-Pa if cost is not factored in. Vista Verde offers better "bang for the buck."

I like Chaparral Pines, but it was a bit too claustrophobic off the tee for me. If the playing corridors were about 10 yards wider on average I think it has some other fantastic attributes and the scenery is very cool.

Seven Canyons is bar none the most spectacular course in Arizona to me, but I think Matt is right that the design doesn't quite match the setting. That said, its still around #5 in the state for me. It suffers a bit from being too narrow, like Chaparral Pines.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2008, 08:51:19 PM »
Andy:
Vista Verde's rack rate is more expensive in November than We-Ko-Pa. 

Andy Troeger

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2008, 08:53:38 PM »
Then I guess Vista Verde USED to be a better deal than We-Ko-Pa. How much is the rack rate now? I guess it was bound to go up once they got established a bit.

I forgot, anybody have thoughts on Quintero. Its been a top 100 modern course the past few years. I preferred Blackstone of the two out in Peoria.

Carl Nichols

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2008, 08:58:45 PM »
Vista Verde is currently $160 for the Friday before Thanksgiving.  But the guy I talked to made quite clear that he thinks there will be discounts available as that date gets closer. 

Forrest Richardson

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2008, 11:00:08 PM »
Obviously Matt rarely pays for his golf.   :D

That list appears like a tour group itinerary for Fannie Mae and Countrywide Executives. Sorry, while it lists some decent courses, it smells like a who's-who list and offers not a lot of....well....fun.

I do like many of your choices Matt, just not all of them on the same pile.

Without ranking anything, I miss Oakcreek CC, WeKoPa, Silvercreek, Troon CC, Rim Club, Ventana Canyon Mountain, and Wigwam Gold. There are others I miss, too. But that's a start.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2008, 11:01:57 PM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2008, 11:02:46 PM »
I also miss the Links at Las Palomas (Sonora, MX) since it is just a hair over the drive from Phoenix to Flagstaff...I think it should count.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Bill_McBride

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #20 on: October 24, 2008, 11:11:01 PM »
I also miss the Links at Las Palomas (Sonora, MX) since it is just a hair over the drive from Phoenix to Flagstaff...I think it should count.

It ain't in Arizona but it is one hell of a golf course!  I haven't played anything in Phoenix that is that much fun and definitely nothing in Tucson.  Apache Stronghold is in the neighborhood.

I would guess that 98% of the play at Las Palomas is from Arizona residents.  Fair to say? 

Matt_Ward

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #21 on: October 24, 2008, 11:19:05 PM »
Forrest:

When Mexico becomes part of the USA -- at least the Sonora State -- I'll consider it for inclusion.  ;D

In regards to your other comments ...

I simply based on my listing on the many times I have been to the state and the countless courses I have played. Whether a place is extremely private or open to the public played no role whatsoever in the final determination. I'll clue you in -- I did pay the basic rack rate for a good number of them.

The "fun" factor is calculated into my mix. I don't know what your "fun" factor is until you can tell me what is deficient in the ones I picked. Sometimes people will poke holes at another man's thoughts but then back away from posting their listing and reasons. I'm eager to hear a bit more details from you on the ways the ones I posted come up short in your estimation.

I played the other ones you mentioned -- some are quite fun and some are like dinosaurs -- they have simply outlived their unique elements that made the attractive in the first place.

Forrest, please the listing I provided is beyond the "decent courses" level you mentioned. They each have added a good bit to what I view as a top tier AZ golf experience. Candidly, I'm happ to say that AZ golf has matured quite nicely over the years and the intersection of different styles and architects makes for an interesting time whenever I return to the Grand Canyon State.

Andy:

You need to play a few more highly rated C&C courses and then I believe you will see why my comments on Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa were stated. Vista Verde is the better overall course and it goes far beyond the so-called cheaper rate to play there.

Saguaro has a very pedestrian front nine and only until you reach the back nine -- especially with the last 6-7 holes did the course really fast forward itself in my book. C&C have a great reputation but Saguaro for me at least, is more about past work than what was created there.

One final point -- I'd like to see the course actually play firm and fast instead of slow and soggy.

CP is also much wider than you claim. Panks and Graham gave the appearance of narrow spots from a visual perspective on a few holes there but the real width is still present.

If you like Desert Highlands then you need to play the layouts at DM. It was at DM that Jack has taken what he introduced at DH and further refined it with the layouts such as Chiricahua.

Tom Yost:

Concur with you 1000% on Los Cab. Too bad few people really go to Wickenburg because it offers so much natural beauty without being overly developed and the range of holes and appearance styles from the front to back nines is quite stunning in so many ways.

Be curios to know which holes on the back nine that you see as being "blah."




Andy Troeger

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #22 on: October 24, 2008, 11:28:33 PM »
Andy:

You need to play a few more highly rated C&C courses and then I believe you will see why my comments on Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa were stated. Vista Verde is the better overall course and it goes far beyond the so-called cheaper rate to play there.

Saguaro has a very pedestrian front nine and only until you reach the back nine -- especially with the last 6-7 holes did the course really fast forward itself in my book. C&C have a great reputation but Saguaro for me at least, is more about past work than what was created there.

One final point -- I'd like to see the course actually play firm and fast instead of slow and soggy.

CP is also much wider than you claim. Panks and Graham gave the appearance of narrow spots from a visual perspective on a few holes there but the real width is still present.

If you like Desert Highlands then you need to play the layouts at DM. It was at DM that Jack has taken what he introduced at DH and further refined it with the layouts such as Chiricahua.


Matt,
CP is not "much wider" than I claim, trust me I found out the hard way on many holes where borderline drives were gone or unplayable. Its the same issue I have with Desert Forest. At CP, some holes are wider than others, but the penalty for missing the fairway on many holes, including #7, 12, 14 (through the chute), 15, and others are not wide enough for my liking. Many of the others have more width, but it loses points with me for the "lost ball factor." Its a good course for the low handicap, but the higher handicap will shoot a big number. The Rim allows more recovery options, with the exception of a couple holes (#16 comes to mind). I actually still have Chaparral in my top ten in Arizona, so there's a lot to like, but I think extra playability would help.

I'm all for firmer and faster at Saguaro, but holes like #1, 2, 4, and 5 are hardly pedestrian. #2 is a great little par four. I don't doubt C & C have built better courses and I would be happy to play them  ;D, but I'm comparing Saguaro to other AZ courses, not other C & C courses.

Forrest Richardson

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Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2008, 01:05:33 AM »
http://www.gadsdenpurchase.com/

Please note that the Gadsden Purchase, if not for the error in surveying, would have created s stratight line across the lower U.S. and, yes, Arizona would have had a small coastline in what is now Peñasco, Mexico. Regarding Mexico becoming a part of the U.S....? Maybe the other way around. Let's not go there before the election, I would not want to give either candidate the notion.   :-X

Yes, Bill, 99% of play at Las Palomas is from the U.S.

Matt — A lot of your picks are sizzle courses. I like sizzle, but only on steaks and Las Vegas shows. The very fact that some of my suggestions have "outlived their unique elements" in your words is, in turn, my evidence that they may well offer something that is lost on many newer, formula layouts.

Perhaps the greatest course in Arizona was Verde Valley CC in Clarkdale, a 9-hole course laid out by the gold and silver miners from Scotland in the very late 1800s. NLE unfortunately, but bones are still there to enjoy.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.779207,-112.04007&z=14&t=h&hl=en
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Tom Naccarato

Re: AZ golf -- My Ten Best ...
« Reply #24 on: October 25, 2008, 01:08:05 AM »
http://www.gadsdenpurchase.com/

Perhaps the greatest course in Arizona was Verde Valley CC in Clarkdale, a 9-hole course laid out by the gold and silver miners from Scotland in the very late 1800s. NLE unfortunately, but bones are still there to enjoy.

http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=34.779207,-112.04007&z=14&t=h&hl=en

Without looking, is this course routed over a boneyard? I would assume so, in Forrestspeak...

« Last Edit: October 25, 2008, 01:10:21 AM by Tom Naccarato »