Ryan:
I can't comment on what is at Papago now. I do respect the comments made from Forrest R regarding what was done with the team that came in and decided to add their own "salad dressing" to the original salad that was present long before you even picked up clubs.
You say, "I missed it." Candidly, the former Papago reminded me of the shell of a course that was more about time from long ago. The game of golf design has accelerated greatly since the late 1980's and some of the more noted public designs -- such as Vista Verde, Saguaro at We-ko-pa and The Raven at Verradom to name just three, are stellar examples in bringing to life a true and meaningful desert golf connection that emphasizes a healthy marriage between playability and challenge.
Ryan, you say strongly that "anyone who knows shit" would place Papago at the top of the public charts for AZ. That's quite a statement because the former Papago was resting on nothing more than memories than anything else the last time I played it (about 10 years ago).
I have to ask -- you say definitively that all "the big problems" were "nipped ... in the butt." I don't know how you can say that with 100% certainty since you admit you have not played the course just yet.
Try to realize the bar for quality public course design in AZ has risen dramatically in the last 25 years. A number of key architects have been busy in the Valley area and beyond and the bar for such courses is no longer just your pedestrian muni with little real qualities attached.
You say -- without a personal play -- that the new Papago is more than able to match up against the likes of Raven Verrado, Vista Verde and Saguaro at We-ko-pa -- that's a tall order my friend and one I'll be most interested in testing when I play Papago this spring.
Tom Y:
I never said you were comparing specifically the likes of Papago to Pinehurst #2. Just the idea that the "old time" layouts have plenty to offer.
The "new styles" you speak about are courses that have greatly accelerated the desert / golf concept to a very high level. Weiskopf / Moorish did much on this front with Troon North -- those two 18-hole courses have since been passed by a broader array of top tier courses that are more unique while still permitting playability and overall scaled challenges. Just check out the qualities of AS in Globe. No doubt the shape of the turf has long been an issue but the detailing of the design is miles beyond the staid layouts that entered the desert scene from the time of the 60's and early 70's.
Tom, given what Forrest said the core elements of Papago have been changed to some extent -- clearly to the point of Forrest raising his own concerns given the pedigree of the course. I have no idea on what's been done now -- but if those elements that first made Papago special were that good -- then why the desire to change them? Maybe, just maybe, those things were needed to be done. Maybe, just maybe, those original elements were not as good -- when held against the gains made on the public scene by the sheer array of such courses since the late '80's.
AZ public golf has come a long way since its first steps -- Papago played a leading role in that effort -- however -- I think that modern public golf today in AZ has more than just a few standout designs that have taken what Papago first did and have gone many, many positive steps beyond.
Tom, I'd hate to see "waterfalls" or other goofy additions just for the sake of fanfare. How good is the "new" Papago? I have no idea. But, I think it's fair to say that modern architects have done well on a broad range of front in providing public players with some compelling architecture in the last 25 years -- places like Raven at Verrado, Vista Verde and Saguaro at We-Ko-Pa testify to that. Ditto a few others I have included as well.
Andy:
Interesting desire to hook up AZ public golf versus the Hoosier State. The old Papago could not sniff the top ten public in Indiana. It's a testament to how good the public depth is in that state. How would the "new" Papago fare? I don't have a clue now.
Interesting you mention Colorado public golf -- I see that state with some of the best options available for quality design. MI public golf has more in terms of quantity -- but I don't see that many of the best MI public courses holding their own with Colorado ... possibly closer to the level of AZ. Indiana is greatly underrated in terms of quality golf -- plenty of the hype often times shifts to neighbors such as Ohio and Michigan.
If the "new" Papago can really sniff a top ten placement when held against Indiana public golf then that's truly saying something for the Phoenix layout in my mind.