[TEPaul]

MichaelH:

It seems fairly certain that George C. Thomas Jr never took a fee for any golf architecture he ever did which spanned about twenty years. One reason might have been that like a lot of those so-called "amateur/sportsmen" designers of that particular era he really didn't have to because he really didn't need it. Like most of those guys they were all pretty well heeled and most of them came by it the old fashioned way.

The other common thread with Thomas and most of the rest of that "amateur/sportsmen" group is they were all very well educated and they were almost all educated in the vein of what was sometimes referred to as "classical"----eg well rounded, including histories of the world, cultures (including architectures), philosophy, naturalism, and in most cases including multiple games and sports as that too was considered to be part of the "well rounded" man.

This kind of thing created a number of what we sometimes referred to as "renaissance" men----eg people both interested in and often very good at a number of things and more often then not very diverse things.

That kind of atmosphere developed a number of men (particularly of Geo. C. Thomas Jr's time and place) who had some unique and original ideas on all kinds of diverse subjects, including golf course architecture and George C. Thomas Jr. was definitely one of them.

Comparing and constrasting Geo. C. Thomas Jr's first effort in architecture (Marion GC around 1905) to some of his final California design products is frankly a remarkably edifying thing to do if one wants to understand how and how much golf architecture evolved  and improved in that era.

[Tom Naccarato]

Dr. Klein is coming to town. Good! I'll be in touch!

Everyone here seems to have some pretty good thoughts. Carl, I would agree with at least two of your points. It would seem that Bell was a pretty busy from 1925 to about 1930. When I say busy, he did a fair amount of work in that time--almost the market share in California, plus he was building not only his courses in the 1920's but Thomas' AND Watson's, as well as work for O'Neil and Croke. also. I've come across many articles where Bell would actually build a course in a rather remarkable amount of time. I'll have to dig up some articles and post them. The golf boom hit California BIG TIME. It may have been just as big per capita as the Tiger Era, maybe even bigger.

All of the other points I think are pretty spot on.

Panhandle Bill,
Recently, I was gifted a photo of the La Cumbre aerial of Thomas' course. Unfortunately I'm not at liberty to post it, but what is seen literally shakes me at my core. What they had there was amazing. including a horseshoe-shaped green that belongs in some sort of hall of fame. The hole after it, a drivable par 4 that looks to be a combination of an Alps and Riv #10. (Opps, I just broke my own rule on this thread!)

With exception to a few, very few holes, Thomas' La Cumbre is a long and distant memory, As you know, a victim of the depression, redevelopment and just urban sprawl. it sat there lying fallow up until the 50's when it was "rescued." And it was better that it was rescued then also redeveloped into houses in one of the more wonderful places to live. (as you know!)

Geoff's bunker work there came out outstanding when compared to what they had, all in the Bell spirit.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

Tommy:

I'm not surprised there are outrageous features at La Cumbre. Marion is an array of styles. Three par 3s that are all blind; Punchbowls; convex greens; reachable par 4s with bunkers that surely prevent 99.37% of all balls making to the green; stonewalls running parallel and perpendicular to the line of play. Come out here and I'll take you there. Flynn had to have stopped in and checked this place out when he was building Kittansett with Mr. Hood.

Anthony

[Adam Clayman]

C&C did a top notch job @ CGC on the flat section NOT building up features agin the natural flow of the land. 

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, which (currrent) hole had the horseshoe green?  That must have been interesting!

[David Stamm]

Where to begin on one of my fav's. Let me start this by saying that I understand most of his work is not in it's "original form."
 

These are just a few of my favroites of his and BB's work.


The 7th at Ojai. The green has been pushed further up the slope due to the flood damage, but the layout of the hole is just solid. Everytime I play it, I think of the photo in the book and what it must've played like.


The 14th at LACC North. What a par 5!!! The green is one of the best I've seen for a 5 par and it still stands up to today's longest players. Just ask Spaulds. Pity those that miss the green right!


The 6th at Riviera. The boldness, the whimsy of the hole is just so refreshing, even for a hole that is over 80 years old. It may be somewhat of a novelty hole, but it is so cool and quirky.



Indivdual features:


The greens on 1 and 15 at Riviera. The original tee shot on 6 at Ojai (NLE, but we found it bud!). The approach on 2 at Riviera. The use of the barranca on 8 at LACC North, the green on 17. There is so much more......

[Mike_Cirba]

George Thomas seems to have spent much of his "downtime" during WWI thinking about what he had learned on the ground from Hugh Wilson, George Crump, and probably Tilly, and Donald Ross, and then after the war went to the west coast where he not only emulated their terrific examples, but also took things to the next level.

Their are no two closer cousins on the planet than Merion and Riviera, although they share a continent apart.

Thomas took the decades of learning of his predecessors, and then created a graduate study of their understandings, their methods, and their direction.

The argument that his courses are no longer exactly as he left them is fallacious...his book tells us all we need to know as his legacy.

[Tom Naccarato]

Tommy, which (currrent) hole had the horseshoe green?  That must have been interesting!

Panhandle Bill,
Please pardon the rawness of this, but its the best I can due short of posting, which I can't, but this is the old routing, with NLE obviously being No Longer Existing. N for New and E for Existing. None of the strategies are the same with exception to the challenging 3rd, which is O.K., just not exactly what was once originally there. Col. Batguano Island needs to go and the old alternate par 4 tee put back.

[Tom Naccarato]

These are just a few of my favroites of his and BB's work.

The 7th at Ojai. The green has been pushed further up the slope due to the flood damage, but the layout of the hole is just solid. Everytime I play it, I think of the photo in the book and what it must've played like.
The 7th? Don't you mean the 16th? yes, that's right, they have switched the routings AGAIN, I'm told!

The 14th at LACC North. What a par 5!!! The green is one of the best I've seen for a 5 par and it still stands up to today's longest players. Just ask Spaulds. Pity those that miss the green right!
You should have seen it before when the entire right side was in play! (OB)

The original tee shot on 6 at Ojai (NLE, but we found it bud!). YES WE DID! We also now know where to bury a dead body when in Ojai...

[James Bennett]

Their are no two closer cousins on the planet than Merion and Riviera, although they share a continent apart.

Wow, that says it all.  Something I have felt over the last 18 months.  The two American courses that continually capture my memory.  More than Pine Valley, and more than Cypress Point (but only just  ).

When I played the 5th at Riviera, I immediately felt that this was a Philadelphia hole.  I told my host so.  How about that buried elephant on the approach shot to the 5th green that is short and right which needs to be carried by the average player's running shot approach (following on from the long par 3 #4 where a running shot is required of the average player as well).  My host reminded me that of course Thomas had come from Philly.  I didn't know/recall that at the time I played.

My guess is that Thomas got so much right because he was brought up in a strong golfing architecture spot, and moved to the West Coast where the ground game could be more easily exploited given the local climate.  Plus many, many more important aspects.

The barranca on Riviera #11 for the ordinary player is just so impressive, even on #1.  What is the least best hole at Riviera?  The quality of that hole (whatever your selection) says something about the whole course.  It might be #14, but the multiple teeing areas and lines of play for a shortish par 3 is something to see by itself.

James B

[TEPaul]

"George Thomas seems to have spent much of his "downtime" during WWI....."

I don't know about that. Do any of you guys understand what Thomas did during his brief engagment in WW1? He isn't called "The Captain" for nothing! According to him or from a remark he made to Zane Grey, there wasn't much reason he could see how he actually made it through. I believe he even underwrote a lot of the expense of his squadron as well as trained them to fly better.

[Mike_Cirba]

"George Thomas seems to have spent much of his "downtime" during WWI....."

I don't know about that. Do any of you guys understand what Thomas did during his brief engagment in WW1? He isn't called "The Captain" for nothing! According to him or from a remark he made to Zane Grey, there wasn't much reason he could see how he actually made it through. I believe he even underwrote a lot of the expense of his squadron as well as trained them to fly better.

Tom,

Didn't he survive about 3 plane crashes as well?

I meant architectural "downtime" during the war years; not that he wasn't actively fighting.   Poor wording on my part.

[Bill_McBride]

Tommy, the old vs new routing of LaCumbre is mindblowing and deserving of a thread or maybe a book of its own.  I can't believe the routing went up into places where there are homes today, many of those were built a long time ago.  The corridors are very well established.  I played on the UCSB golf team in the early '60s and the routing was the same as it is today.  When did these massive, major changes take place, during the Depression?

By the way, I like some of the present tees better in the current locations than those you show on the aerial.  Specifically I'm thinking of currrent #10 (old #1) where there is an interesting angle off the tee, and again on #12 today (old #2), where the tee to the south brings the lake much more into play and makes it a Cape-style tee shot.

Thanks for the work on marking up the current aerial.  In spite of all the changes, it's still a fascinating course in a lovely setting.

[Forrest Richardson]

Tommy — Don't you remember!!!! 

Desmond set the Way-back Machine for a visit with Thomas. That's how he got so much right.

[Tom Naccarato]

Panhandle Bill,
The club actually closed down during the war years; they virtually walked away from it until the 1950's when Bell Jr. rerouted most of the deserted holes, and thats what they were, deserted. The club made the money to re-open by selling those lots and redeveloping--in some sense, most of the course.

It's probably better that you don't see the aerial because it would make you sick to your stomach. Some of the holes are that good. (When compared to the previous Bell Jr./Cary Bickler changes. The bunker work Geoff has done there has really transformed the course into something with a lot more style and class, more akin to the original.

Geoff is in the process of doing a YouTube-thingy  and when its done, I'll make sure your the first to see it.

[Joe Bausch]

Well, MacDonald and Bray gave their seal of approval (sort of) for the first nine at Whitemarsh.  This from the April 30, 1908 edition of the Philadelphia Inquirer:

[Bill_McBride]

Panhandle Bill,
The club actually closed down during the war years; they virtually walked away from it until the 1950's when Bell Jr. rerouted most of the deserted holes, and thats what they were, deserted. The club made the money to re-open by selling those lots and redeveloping--in some sense, most of the course.

It's probably better that you don't see the aerial because it would make you sick to your stomach. Some of the holes are that good. (When compared to the previous Bell Jr./Cary Bickler changes. The bunker work Geoff has done there has really transformed the course into something with a lot more style and class, more akin to the original.

Geoff is in the process of doing a YouTube-thingy  and when its done, I'll make sure your the first to see it.

Interesting, because when I played there in 1961-63, the course seemed very well established and the houses looked like they'd been there for decades.  The new holes couldn't have been completed more than 10 years if the work was done in the early '50s. Any idea when the barranca caved in behind what was #16 in the original routing and the par 3 was lost?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()