[John Moore II]

While I love Tobacco Road, I don't for a second think that it is a top 100 course. Its a very good course, very interesting. But it is not one of the 100 best in America, IMHO. If Bryan Park (Champions) where they are hosting the US Am Publinx in a couple of years is not top 100, no way TR is.

[Dan Herrmann]

Matt - Thanks for mentioning this issue.

What a crock.  From what I gather, they rated practice facilites and food as high as architecture.  Merion East has a charming, simple, effective practice area, and your club is possibly better - shoot, even mine is.

Hidden Creek is awesome.  But the 3rd best club in the country?  Uhhhh - I don't think so.

I've grown weary of Golf World this year, and was ready to cancel after this issue.  But then I realized that I'm getting it free as part of my membership in GAP

[Carl Nichols]

John,

The top 1 to 5% mentioned a couple posts above will tell you that anyone who mixes Maker's with anything is wrong.

Agreed -- if you're mixing bourbon and with coke, you're just wasting money on Makers.

Come on...we are talking about a morning drink.  I may prefer Belvedere in my Bloody Mary but I don't tell them to hold the tomato juice.   If you don't splash a bit of something before noon you might have a problem.

John:  I don't have anything against a splash, and am certainly not usually drinking Makers neat before noon.  I was just answering your question abt why someone would order a Jack when you've already ordered a Makers:  if they're adding a splash, they don't care about (and don't want to pay for) the difference. 

[A.G._Crockett]

Just wondering if any of you who are so upset with the results of a readers' poll bothered to participate and send in your own rankings to Golf World?

If the answer is no, aren't you a bit like eligible voters who sit out an election and then bitch and moan about the winner?  The fact is that if you don't care enough about what you think to participate, then nobody else will care what you think either.  That's the way democracy works.

And remember, it is NOT Golf World's rankings.  It is the result of a readers' poll.  That's all.  They're just trying to sell a few magazines in a tough economy; give 'em a break.

[Matt_Ward]

A.G. Crockett:

With all due respect ...

I did send in my comments -- so please nuff of the democratic drivel about not participating and therefore having to live with the final results. I still reserve the right to disagree based on my own personal findings.

Also, please avoid the tap dance argument that this is not Golf World's listing -- the magazine provides the outlet for such a finding to be published. They do a play a hand in what happens by its sheer promotion.

Like I said, if you have the time and energy -- check out what Golf World used to provide as a bases for real information on top quality golf choices when Dick Taylor was the publisher.

Magazines should elevate the discussion by using sources that will sort out the esoteric elements for the real tangibles that make going to a particular place worthwhile. For all I know some people voted for a particular place because the coke came in a 64-ounce chalice or the Hooter's girl that served them gave them a wink when playing. 

Rob R:

Well put points.

I would dare repeat again how much better the magazines were from years back before the rush to include Joe Sixpack in the mix as some sort of real benchmark for quality. Of course, if people enjoy eating hash (see fast food as a rule) then those producing it will keep on serving readers who digest (no pun intended) it.

Rob, I depend on individuals from different parts of the country to form my desires to play certain courses. The magazines really stopped playing such a role for me years and years ago.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G. Crockett:

With all due respect ...

I did send in my comments -- so please nuff of the democratic drivel about not participating and therefore having to live with the final results. I still reserve the right to disagree based on my own personal findings.

Also, please avoid the tap dance argument that this is not Golf World's listing -- the magazine provides the outlet for such a finding to be published. They do a play a hand in what happens by its sheer promotion.

Like I said, if you have the time and energy -- check out what Golf World used to provide as a bases for real information on top quality golf choices when Dick Taylor was the publisher.

Magazines should elevate the discussion by using sources that will sort out the esoteric elements for the real tangibles that make going to a particular place worthwhile. For all I know some people voted for a particular place because the coke came in a 64-ounce chalice or the Hooter's girl that served them gave them a wink when playing. 

Rob R:

Well put points.

I would dare repeat again how much better the magazines were from years back before the rush to include Joe Sixpack in the mix as some sort of real benchmark for quality. Of course, if people enjoy eating hash (see fast food as a rule) then those producing it will keep on serving readers who digest (no pun intended) it.

Rob, I depend on individuals from different parts of the country to form my desires to play certain courses. The magazines really stopped playing such a role for me years and years ago.

Matt Ward

With all due respect...

I'll drop the "democratic drivel" as soon as you drop your pedantic elitist sanctimony about "Joe Sixpack".  Sickening, tired, and a little sad.

And everybody that has ever read your rants on ranking lists knows you love Black Mesa, by the way.  Take a laxative and move on, bro.

[Matt_Ward]

A.G. Crockett:

I include Joe Sixpack because the designation is an apt one. I would think Golf World would serve the interest of its readers who expect a good bit more than the low brow. Maybe you believe such stories add to the stock of the magazine.

If you don't like what I write -- ignore it. You rag on me concerning Black Mesa -- well guess what -- I've read my share from you concerning the layouts in and around the Myrtle Beach area. If that floats your boat then write it.

I mention Black Mesa no less than some of the people on this site mention the likes of Merion, Seminole, Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes, et al. The course is that good - if you have not played it then stuff your comments until you do.

I answered your post in a straightforward manner -- don't know if you have a clue on what past magazines used to do when dealing with such topics. Maybe you should enlighten yourself before barking at me with the same tired refrains.

Like my father was famous for saying -- you can work with ignorance but you just can't help stupidity.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You'll evidently disagree with this, but as good as Black Mesa is--and I think very highly of it, its not Pebble Beach, and its not that close.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G. Crockett:

I include Joe Sixpack because the designation is an apt one. I would think Golf World would serve the interest of its readers who expect a good bit more than the low brow. Maybe you believe such stories add to the stock of the magazine.

If you don't like what I write -- ignore it. You rag on me concerning Black Mesa -- well guess what -- I've read my share from you concerning the layouts in and around the Myrtle Beach area. If that floats your boat then write it.

I mention Black Mesa no less than some of the people on this site mention the likes of Merion, Seminole, Pebble Beach, Pacific Dunes, et al. The course is that good - if you have not played it then stuff your comments until you do.

I answered your post in a straightforward manner -- don't know if you have a clue on what past magazines used to do when dealing with such topics. Maybe you should enlighten yourself before barking at me with the same tired refrains.

Like my father was famous for saying -- you can work with ignorance but you just can't help stupidity.

Yawn...

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

With all due respect -- my point was a simple one -- I've read the comments from people on courses they enjoy talking about. That list includes Wild Horse, Bethpage, etc, etc, etc, beyond just the usual high elite private / resort layouts. I've tried to be a champion of legitimate places that few people really take the time to play and see -- not just the usual round-up of the same private / high end resorts that few people will really be able to play and visit with any sense of regularity.

Black Mesa is a super layout -- worthy of more attention and acclaim than it gets. I've traveled a fair share and played a rather generous sampling of courses from one part of the USA to the next. If people have an argument against the course they should post it. If A.G. Crockett has played it and feels otherwise be more than interested in hearing it. If it's nothing more than a whine about what others thing then he should pipe down until he has.

One other thing -- I've made my comments -- along with others -- on what Pebble Beach lacks for a few holes there. It's not as bulletproof as you think but clearly you won't buy my argument and it's doubtful I shall see yours. So be it.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

With all due respect -- my point was a simple one -- I've read the comments from people on courses they enjoy talking about. That list includes Wild Horse, Bethpage, etc, etc, etc, beyond just the usual high elite private / resort layouts. I've tried to be a champion of legitimate places that few people really take the time to play and see -- not just the usual round-up of the same private / high end resorts that few people will really be able to play and visit with any sense of regularity.

Black Mesa is a super layout -- worthy of more attention and acclaim than it gets. I've traveled a fair share and played a rather generous sampling of courses from one part of the USA to the next. If people have an argument against the course they should post it. If A.G. Crockett has played it and feels otherwise be more than interested in hearing it. If it's nothing more than a whine about what others thing then he should pipe down until he has.

I agree that Black Mesa is a fine layout. I have it ahead of Whistling Straits, Pasatiempo, Harbour Town, Arcadia Bluffs, We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, and other high priced public layouts. I also have it ahead of every course I've played in Arizona, including Forest Highlands Canyon. Just not Pebble.

I do enjoy reading your comments about places that most folks don't discuss. I wish more of us would take the time to post about different places instead of the same courses repeatedly. I also appreciate the frankness of your comments. You may get a bit carried away at times and repeat yourself on occasion  , but at least its obvious that you believe in what you write.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Read your last post very carefully -- here's the deal -- if Black Mesa is ahead of the name courses you mentioned -- then the gap between Black Mesa and the elite of elites is not that great.

I never said BM was better than Pebble -- you simply misinterpreted my remarks when I said certain people here on GCA talk about the same places over and over again. My response to Mr. Crockett was his flippant statement to me that BM is all I talk about. That's not the case - but I find no issue in stating my like for the place given the different courses I have sampled.

My "getting carried away" is often pointed out by certain people because I make it a point to add other courses and architects to the overall discussion as you are aware. Simple as that.

[A.G._Crockett]

Andy:

Read your last post very carefully -- here's the deal -- if Black Mesa is ahead of the name courses you mentioned -- then the gap between Black Mesa and the elite of elites is not that great.

I never said BM was better than Pebble -- you simply misinterpreted my remarks when I said certain people here on GCA talk about the same places over and over again. My response to Mr. Crockett was his flippant statement to me that BM is all I talk about. That's not the case - but I find no issue in stating my like for the place given the different courses I have sampled.

My "getting carried away" is often pointed out by certain people because I make it a point to add other courses and architects to the overall discussion as you are aware. Simple as that.

Mr. Ward
It was NOT my intention to come across as "flippant" when I commented on your unfailing use of Black Mesa as your primary criticism of any list whatsoever.

Rather than "flippant", I was trying for "dismissive".  Mea culpa.

[JNC Lyon]

The worst thing about the lists is that Golf World maintains that they have more credibility simply because they factored in other elements besides the golf course.  Who really cares about the food or service when you are just looking for a place to play?  What does this have to do with golf course architecture or anything?  Garden City (which was rated pretty highly compared to some of its usual counterparts) got lower marks because of FOOD (which is awesome btw) and the driving range (so they should do what, by up a whole neighborhood just so members can spend more time practicing bad golf swings?  Someone should pick Bayonne over Garden City because GCGC doesn't have a 360 degree range??)

This poll also shows how disturbingly little most golfers know about golf course architecture.  I play at and love Oak Hill, but I wouldn't think for a second that it ranks higher than CYPRESS POINT!!!  It was tied for first in the US with a 10.00 rating (yes, Oak Hill has two perfect golf courses).  I find this type of thing disturbing because it is often these types of people who think they know everything and drive courses (like Oak Hill) to make miserable changes to great designs.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:

Read your last post very carefully -- here's the deal -- if Black Mesa is ahead of the name courses you mentioned -- then the gap between Black Mesa and the elite of elites is not that great.

To me Cypress Point and Pebble Beach are pretty far ahead of anything else I've seen. Otherwise, I agree. The difference between Black Mesa and everything else I've seen is not that great, as you say. I would agree with your general premise potentially more than that specific example.

[Matt_Ward]

JNC Lyon:

Well said indeed.

If driving ranges are to be calculated into the mix -- why should Bayonne get a favorable rating when all you are doing is hitting floater balls into a water encircled area protected by netting?

The issue with reader driven polls is that magazines should seek to raise the bar by doing its own homework instead of trying to include the comments from certain people who care more about what type of shower head rinses off their body once the round is concluded.

I don't pay for a subscription to get the lowest analysis assessments tied to topics that don't have any real connection to why I go play golf in the first place.

I mentioned this previously but it seems the discussion of golf courses and design were quite more involved from specific contributions from key writers than this broad method of useless info that's been delivered. I can remember reading such great critiques from people like Cal Brown on Pine Valley and articles that Wind did on Merion, Cypress, etc, etc, for Digest. Now you get this quick snapshot that often times is of such little value.


Mr. Crockett:

You keep on barking about my usage of Black Mesa -- I simply mentioned the course in regards to the fact that Golf World -- excuse me, it's readers --decided to include a nearby course (Paa-Ko Ridge) at such a high level and then the same publication -- through its "astute" readers -- would then be so kind as to have collective amnesia and fail to include Black Mesa at any point on their public course listing.

I don't hype Black Mesa anymore than other courses I have a high regard for. In fact, I have learned a good deal from others who mention specific courses time after time and there have been cases when I have visited such layouts and come away equally impressed. I also try to include courses for discussion here on GCA that get very little attention because they are deemed to be among the specific elite few.

I have no clue on whether you have been to NM. If you have been there then I'd certainly like to get your take on the courses in question. If you have not played them -- then your desire to bark to me about my constant trumpeting of the place really has no standing to rest your case upon.

Andy:

Keep this in mind -- from the top courses I have seen you post or rate -- Black Mesa merits being included among the best you have played. Like I said -- if BM is ahead of the others you mentioned -- then it's clearly one of the top layouts here in the USA. If that means it's only behind the likes of PB and CP -- well, that's quite a compliment indeed.

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