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Thomas MacWood

When did modern golf architecture begin?
« on: October 23, 2008, 10:09:15 AM »
Some claim modern golf architecture began in the heathland with Sunningdale around 1900, but there were other good inland courses that predate it (Worlington, Ganton, New Zealand, Woking, Myopia, etc), and certainly there were many well laid out links courses prior to 1900. I think you could also make a case modern architecture began later - with super projects like Princes and NGLA or the famous redesigns of Woking and Sunningdale. Those projects have a look, feel and sophistication that not that much different than what you find today.

When did it begin?

PCCraig

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2008, 11:20:08 AM »
I would consider "modern" GCA to have started the first time someone used a bulldozer to move earth in order to build up a golf course.
H.P.S.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2008, 12:25:26 PM »
When did modern golf course architecture begin – simple when someone when out and designed a course irrespective of any major earth movement.

Why are we so intent on dismissing the early guys who designed the courses in the 19th Century? They set the standards, laid down the modern requirements, they set the dream, without them there would be no Holt, no Nicklaus, and No Tiger.

So the first Modern Architecture started when some one went out and deliberately designed a golf course which was indeed pre 1900.


Thomas MacWood

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2008, 01:54:04 PM »
Melvyn
Modern suggests an up-to-date or new architecture in contrast to an old or archaic style. Don't you think your view is a bit simplistic? Modern architecture began when man crawled into a cave and modern art began when he took rock and began scratching images of some four-legged neighbor.

Anthony Gray

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2008, 02:16:43 PM »
 


  "Let there be light"






Melvyn Morrow

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2008, 03:40:17 PM »

Simplistic?

I think that’s the label you stamp on anyone who does not agree with you.

Simplistic? No I don’t think so, as the modern game of golf started in the 19th Century so when you use term Modern that’s the date I expect you meant.

Or does that again not fit into to your scheme of things?
 


Kalen Braley

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2008, 03:45:56 PM »
Seeing how its Ran's site, perhaps we'll use his definition.  By his reckoning, "modern" didn't really start till after 1985.

Pre-1899: The architectural skill employed in these courses is minimal and yet the lesson learned is invaluable: nature provides the most enduring challenge. The architects of this day spent only one or two days on site to stake out the tees and greens. They had few decisions to make: they didn't have the ability to move much land. These courses have been largely modified over the past century to adjust to equipment changes.


1900-1937: For the first time, architects started to move and shape land to create hazards and add strategic interest. Such work started with the heathland courses outside of London and men like Charles Blair Macdonald brought it to America, where he coined the term 'golf architect' around 1910. Tom Simpson called the Roaring Twenties the 'Golden Age' of course design, and he was right.


1949-1985: The dark ages of course design and few courses are profiled from this period. The vast majority of the courses built during the Trent Jones era were based on length, contain little variety and offer few options. Pete Dye led the charge out of this bleak period of bland courses after his trip to Scotland in the 1960s.


Present: With every imaginable tool available to shape land, modern architects have numerous options that their fore-fathers never did. In the mid 1980s, architects manufactured courses with immense visual impact but often times lacking in strategy or charm. As the century drew to a close, architects appreciated once again how to maximise the subtleties in the existing land while tempering how much dirt they moved. In this manner, golf architecture has come full circle from a century ago.

Thomas MacWood

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2008, 03:52:05 PM »

When did modern golf course architecture begin – simple when someone when out and designed a course irrespective of any major earth movement.


You appear to be saying that golf architecture and modern golf architecture began simultaneously. Did Classical music begin when man began banging on a hollow stump?

Melvyn Morrow

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2008, 03:58:27 PM »
Kalen

Sorry but Ran definition is wrong, although if based upon the North American mainland I can't comment.

Look at courses like Luffness New & Old to see the development that went into those, not a one day wonder and simple. Even earlier Westward Ho of 1860. By the standards of the day they lead the way, but in our arrogance we tend to believe that past generations possessed less intelligence. Golf modern age started in the 19th Century - sorry like it or not course were designed in that century.

We underrate past generation at our peril  


Bradley Anderson

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2008, 04:19:52 PM »
My best guess would be at the 17th hole at St. Andrews when the road hole bunker was built.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2008, 04:52:27 PM »
Kalen

Sorry but Ran definition is wrong, although if based upon the North American mainland I can't comment.

Look at courses like Luffness New & Old to see the development that went into those, not a one day wonder and simple. Even earlier Westward Ho of 1860. By the standards of the day they lead the way, but in our arrogance we tend to believe that past generations possessed less intelligence. Golf modern age started in the 19th Century - sorry like it or not course were designed in that century.

We underrate past generation at our peril  




Melvyn,

This is exactly what I have felt for years. Modernity might even be best defined as a zeitgeist that is characterized by: the generations living, thinking of themselves as superior to the generations past.

Kalen Braley

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2008, 05:03:24 PM »
I disagree.

Modern != better/more enlightened/superior/etc in my mind.  Never has, never will.

John Moore II

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2008, 06:36:04 PM »
Tom MacWood--To define when modern golf architecture began, I would say that we must first define exactly what (your, since this is an opinionated question) modern architecture is, exactly. To my definition, modern architecture would be of the style used today, where large scale irrigation operations are in place, large scale earth moving, and the 'creation' of golf courses. Given this, and based on how courses are designed today, I would say that 'modern' architecture started around maybe 1950. Unless we want to define golf architecture like Literature and divide into modern and post-modern periods, which just sounds foolish. Of course, if we want to define modern in the context of the likings of those on this site (i.e. minimalism) that 'modern' period started sometime around 1995. So, please Tom, tell what you define as "modern" and the rest of us will be able to tell you when it began.

Ian Larson

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2008, 06:58:15 PM »
I think that if the modern era is considered to gone back to the 19th century instead of Ran's definition, then golf course architecture takes on a third era, ancient.

try to follow me on this......if the modern era goes back to when natural sites were still being selected and minimal to none earth movement was undergone then it seems we have a grey area and overlap in the era's. I dont think that there was anything in the 19th century that distinguished a change in the art of creating a golf course nor the design and strategy of the game.

If what Mr. Morrow is saying is true, then I think we need to break the beginning era's of golf down even more which is what Im getting at with an ancient era. IMHO I think that would be hard to do. I dont see a clear change in the art or strategy of golf.

Thats why it's much more acceptable to me to consider the movement of the game to the states and the early use of modern machinery as a distinguishable point in time that you can consider it modern.

Thomas MacWood

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2008, 07:05:21 PM »
Tom MacWood--To define when modern golf architecture began, I would say that we must first define exactly what (your, since this is an opinionated question) modern architecture is, exactly. To my definition, modern architecture would be of the style used today, where large scale irrigation operations are in place, large scale earth moving, and the 'creation' of golf courses. Given this, and based on how courses are designed today, I would say that 'modern' architecture started around maybe 1950. Unless we want to define golf architecture like Literature and divide into modern and post-modern periods, which just sounds foolish. Of course, if we want to define modern in the context of the likings of those on this site (i.e. minimalism) that 'modern' period started sometime around 1995. So, please Tom, tell what you define as "modern" and the rest of us will be able to tell you when it began.

Modern is a relative term. Today Modern architect and Modern denote specific periods and styles, but not so much with golf architecture. You tell me when modern architecture began.

John Moore II

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2008, 07:30:46 PM »
Tom--I all ready did, or can you not read? OK, so I gave two definitions. Again, I say given the current state of architecture, the "modern" period started around 1950, when architects began using heavy machinery on a regular basis and irrigation.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2008, 07:44:00 PM »
Technically the term modern "begins" at whatever happens to be prevailing over now. That makes it almost impossible to pin down, because golf course architecture is more varied now, in style, than possibly ever before now.

Contemporary golf course architects seem to be in a lot of different camps these days. Don't you think?

Another persepctive of the term modern is Paul Johnson's BIRTH OF THE MODERN. He traces modernity to 1815-1830. His basic thesis is that modernity began with steam power and philisophical enlightenment. I would highly recommend this book for anyone who is curious about the origins of contemporary western civilization thought and values.



JESII

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2008, 07:50:24 PM »
Reading about Tom Doak routing a course on a topo prior to seeing the property seems to be a dgree far more...modern...than anything the guys would/could do 20 years ago...

I think the evolutions in the last 15 years (from an architects perspective) equal those of the first 150 years.

Sean_A

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 08:09:46 PM »
If I had to pick when modern architecture started it would be when Colt was given license to alter Sunny Old.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas MacWood

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2008, 08:50:58 PM »
Tom MacWood--To define when modern golf architecture began, I would say that we must first define exactly what (your, since this is an opinionated question) modern architecture is, exactly. To my definition, modern architecture would be of the style used today, where large scale irrigation operations are in place, large scale earth moving, and the 'creation' of golf courses. Given this, and based on how courses are designed today, I would say that 'modern' architecture started around maybe 1950. Unless we want to define golf architecture like Literature and divide into modern and post-modern periods, which just sounds foolish. Of course, if we want to define modern in the context of the likings of those on this site (i.e. minimalism) that 'modern' period started sometime around 1995. So, please Tom, tell what you define as "modern" and the rest of us will be able to tell you when it began.

Large scale irrigation and earthmoving began in the 1920s and 30s.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 08:52:35 PM by Tom MacWood »

PThomas

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2008, 08:56:06 PM »
Harbour Town!?!?!?
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Melvyn Morrow

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2008, 09:24:26 PM »

The real problem is in the question and based upon a single word Modern. In golf terms I consider the modern age of golf started in the 19th Century.

As for course design or as we call it today architecture, that again really started from just pre 1850’s with I believe a total of 30ish course worldwide. Within 60 years that figure grew into the thousands and was worldwide.

The early course pre 1800 would be hard to describe as designed courses, by the mid 1850 onwards there was major design input. Dismiss these pioneers of our sport, not because they did not move soil around, but you dismiss them because of your own ignorance.

A design is a design is a design, how simple or easy it is to convert in to a practical concept is down to the quality and integrity of the designer and his agreement (or not) to build the course on a given plot. How many have read old reports stating that the club wanted an 18 hole course but it was not viable on the land currently offered but a 9 was. If 18 were required then more land was needed. Also lets look at the locations, in the good old days they looked at the land to see if a course was possible, today, hell just rip the guts out of the ground design a retro course and reconstruct the land from the drainage upwards (excuse my crude description, but I guess you understand what I’m saying). Nothing is sacred its down to money, a course can be built anywhere just throw enough money and someone will do the job for the client. We talked about Spirit recently, what spirit is left in the ground after a modern course is constructed?

IMHO we do an injustice to the first designers, we minimise their efforts because our own lack of understanding, we lap up all the reports and comments from the Golden Age designers who surprisingly seem to understand their predecessors less that we do to day.

We on this site have difficulty understand the each other and yet we speak more or less the same language. So I repeat modern for me in golfing terms means mid 19th Century onwards. 



Ian Andrew

Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2008, 11:02:47 PM »
Tom,

I would say 1946

The end of the 1940’s saw Trent Jones make some changes to Augusta including the relocated 11th green and major change to the #16 hole. Both holes were clearly built to the new heroic/modern school of architecture. This also brought the two “Bobby” Jones’s together, which led to the 1948 collaboration on the new Peachtree Golf Course in Atlanta. While this was supposed to combine the two talents, it became a pure expression of Robert Trent Jones instead. Peachtree marks the definitive end to the Golden Age and the definitive beginning to modern golf architecture. Robert Trent Jones built a course that featured huge tees and greens, huge flexibility in set up, including very defined pin positions built into very large greens. This architecture was very maintenance friendly with its ability to spread wear and offer massive flexibility in set up. It was flexible in the set up from long to short and from hard to easy depending on tee markers and pin positions. It also reflected Trent’s philosophy of a hard par and any easy bogie. It was the beginning of a new era.

Robert Trent Jones’s immergence also coincided with a change in how courses were built. Before the war, courses were still largely being built by hand, by the late 1940’s the machine age had begun. Architects would soon utilizing large amounts of earthmoving equipment.


Ian Larson

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #23 on: October 24, 2008, 12:10:55 AM »
Am I correct in beleiving the myth that the first bulldozer was used at Riviera with Thomas and Bell? The one seen in that picture that I know weve all seen?

JESII

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Re: When did modern golf architecture begin?
« Reply #24 on: October 24, 2008, 12:13:34 AM »
Ian,

Great post, and tough to argue.

"Modern" does need a definition though if we are going to actually answer this one...