[John Moore II]

I was in San Diego this past week and I was struck at the lack of anything (beyond perhaps Torrey Pines) that resembled a great golf course. Other than Torrey (and I may be wrong) you have to go to LA or Palm Springs to find a top 100 course, and this is in or around a city of over 1 million people. Are there any other cities of that size with such a lack of great golf within a reasonable distance if the city?

[Kyle Henderson]

Barona Creek is they one most frequently praised on this discussion board, but it's no bargain thses days.

Then again, come late January I'd rather play a junker in San Diego than a classic in the Northeast.

[Pete Lavallee]

Did you play San Diego CC, La Jolla CC or Rancho Santa Fe CC? Barona is indeed our only great public access course; truely the only dissapointing part about living in "America's Finest City".

[Kalen Braley]

Did you play San Diego CC, La Jolla CC or Rancho Santa Fe CC? Barona is indeed our only great public access course; truely the only dissapointing part about living in "America's Finest City".

Pete, Amen to that one.  I had an absolute blast with pretty much everything else on my recent trip.  And I suppose one could learn to live with having to put up with that kind of awful year round weather.   

[John Moore II]

Did you play San Diego CC, La Jolla CC or Rancho Santa Fe CC? Barona is indeed our only great public access course; truely the only dissapointing part about living in "America's Finest City".

I did not play at all in SD. But I can't think of a course that is in any top 100 list (other than Torrey, which many on here disagree with) within the town. I could be wrong. I just think that with a city that big, 8th biggest in the nation, not having a renowned course is odd.

[Jeff Evagues]

I'm going to be in SD in Feb for 11 days. Played both at TP a few years ago so looking for 5-6 other places. 

[David Stamm]

I would not rate Torrey South as even one of the best three in this city. Barona is probably the best public or private with a pick em between Pauma Valley, RSFGC and SDCC. As I have said many times here, I think the North at Torrey is a "better design" than the South. Coronado is a cool, cheap SD experience on the bay. As Pete said, truly the only disappointing part of living here in SD is the lack of depth in regards to quality courses.

[Anthony Fowler]

I agree that SD golf is not what it could be given the land, weather, and number of golfers.  However, I think SD courses do not get their due credit. 

My top 4 in the metro area are Torrey South, San Diego CC, Rancho Santa Fe GC, and Pauma Valley CC.  SDCC has some of the best greens in the world with incredible natural undulation and impeccable conditioning.  Rancho and Pauma are also good classic designs with good greens. 

La Jolla is fun and scenic but not as good as my top 4.  Some of the modern private clubs like The Crosby, The Bridges, The Farms, Santa Luz, Fairbanks, Del Mar CC, Morgan Run, Del Mar Meadows (new name now but I can't remember it) are very fancy in terms of conditioning and amenities but very weak architecturally.  Additionally, most of these courses are unwalkable. 

SD is also pretty weak on the public front.  There are very few good public options and pretty steep greens fees.  I think Torrey, Barona, Carlton Oaks, and Cross Creek are probably the best of the bunch (factoring in price).

I agree with the overall sentiment of the thread, but I hold that SD does have 4 very good golf courses, and there are only a handful of cities that can say the same

[Patrick Kiser]

You know ... I think Balboa is actually fun and quirky.  Nothing to write home about, but good fun nonetheless.  As long as you don't mind being in the flight path.

There's some feedback on Carlsbad Crossings, but the planes crash into the course there.  I think TH has a thread on this somewhere back.

But yes ... the pickens are slim in SD wasteland.

[Kalen Braley]

Balboa Park may be a quirky course, but the clubhouse sure is a dump.   

I drove by it on my recent trip down there and it looked like a fun course, as well was Coronado.

[Pete Lavallee]

I did not play at all in SD. But I can't think of a course that is in any top 100 list (other than Torrey, which many on here disagree with) within the town. I could be wrong. I just think that with a city that big, 8th biggest in the nation, not having a renowned course is odd.

So your real question is "WHY aren't there any good courses"?

This would seem to revolve around how much money was located here in the 1920's when most of the great courses where built. San Diego had a very small opoulation back then; if you eliminated all the sailors the population would probably be cut in half. AG Spalding (of the sporting goods fame) lived hear and moved his original SDCC from PT Loma when the Navy annexed his land to build their Naval Training Center. The went south to Chula Vista and built SDCC which was proably the first golf course in SD to have irrigation in 1921. Although Billy Bell generally gets the credit for that layout, a certain So Cal forensic architect seems to have evidence that it was Willie Watson's design. I'm sure the Club would have greater appeal if it hadn't plowed over its original greens in the 60's.

La Jolla was built by Bell in 1927, this is where many of SD's affluent citizens live.

Rancho Santa Fe was built in 1929, as a way of selling homes/ranches on land the Railroad Co had planned to use to grow Eucalyptus trees for railroad ties. They tried to get MacKenzie to build it, but since he was busy with the Cypress Point project he recommended his friend Max Behr. The Depression hit as soon as the Club opened and the SFRR kept the Club afloat so as not to loose their investment. You could still play there for a dollar up until 1960! It is now America's most affluent community; but rich people can be stupid too and the changes made there have not enhanced the original architecture.

Water was surely an issue; Mulholland didn't pipe the Owens River this far down, he stopped in LA and places like Balboa Park were dirt fairways and oiled sand greens until a 1931 WPA project. When new money finally flocked to our ideal climate the architechture that was in vouge didn't lend itself to greatness. Kind of a too little too late sceneario.

[John Moore II]

But why did RTJ or Dye or Nicklaus build any real good courses down in SD during the 70's, 80's and early 90's? I mean, there seeems to be a real load of money in the area. I have found one golfweek top 100 course: Bridges at Rancho Santa Fe, and its only top 100 Residential courses, which might not be saying much. Maybe I am missing something.

[Pete Lavallee]

KJM,

RTJ Sr had his chance at Puama Valley; it was rated within the top 20 in Cal. for many years. The Dye Group (Perry) did a very good redesign at Carlton Oaks; generally the 3rd best public recommendation. Apparently Nickluas was not invited. Todd Eckenrode proved that a great course can be built within 30 minutes of downtown at Barona Creek; I still blame the architectural style that was in vogue when the money finally arrived.

[Pete Lavallee]

JKM,

Let me ask you this question: If we removed every course in LA built before 1929 what Top 100's would we be left with? Rustic Canyon and then what?

[Patrick Kiser]

Good point Kalen, but you forget I come from humble surroundings these days.  When you're used to playing Lincoln Park on a regular basis ... you learn to lower your expectations about the clubhouse... :-)

Balboa Park may be a quirky course, but the clubhouse sure is a dump.   

I drove by it on my recent trip down there and it looked like a fun course, as well was Coronado.

[Kalen Braley]

Good point Kalen, but you forget I come from hunble surroundings these days.  When you're used to playing Lincoln Park on a regular basis ... you learn to lower your expectations about the clubhouse... :-)

Balboa Park may be a quirky course, but the clubhouse sure is a dump.   

I drove by it on my recent trip down there and it looked like a fun course, as well was Coronado.

[/quote

Very true Patrick....the clubhouse at LP isn't much better, likely worse.

I was only half kidding of course, but I am spoiled here in Utah and previously Spokane WA where I have the best of both worlds.  Fun, interesting well maintained courses that are dirt cheap to play, easy to get on,  and even have modern clubhouses. 

[Tim Leahy]

Nicklaus did do Bear Creek out in Temecula which is really a SD suburb.  Also there are some others I used to play that are good but a little overpriced: Maderas, Aviara, and the The Grand.  Encinitas Ranch, The Vineyards and Eagle Crest are solid publics that are not too over priced.

[Patrick Kiser]

Tim,

I agree with you on those courses you mention in the sense they're probably what's worth anyone's time down in SD ... but I think you'll agree they're nothing to write about.  Don't let TN get started on the GCA value (especially since you mentioned ER).


Pete,

To your question about ''why'' ... I'm basically thinking it has had everything to do with timing.

SD never really took of until the late 70's when you really think about it.  And of course just about anything from then until recent times has been subject to the ''modern'' archies.

I'd like to think things might have turned out quite differently if SD was taking off these last few years (2000 onward).

 

[Jon Spaulding]

Nicklaus did do Bear Creek out in Temecula which is really a SD suburb.  Also there are some others I used to play that are good but a little overpriced: Maderas, Aviara, and the The Grand.  Encinitas Ranch, The Vineyards and Eagle Crest are solid publics that are not too over priced.

You've got to be joking about Encinitas Ranch. That is one of the most uninspired designs ever to have seed put on top of it. The ratio of price divided by complete poop makes it quite expensive.

[Tom Naccarato]

Tim,
Please! Encinitas Ranch is about as inspired as Temecula is a suburb of San Diego!

Try Riverside....That'll work....

[Jon Spaulding]

Errrrr.....and I'm postulating that Perris is a suburb of Temecula which by some associative property makes it a suburb of La Jolla. Which means that W.P. Bell must have done the concrete liners at Menifee Lakes.

I firmly believe that Aviara with a $250 green fee is totally worth it. The fairway mounding, intricate lakework, and the ability to pick multiple bouquets of flowers (during the round), to deliver to your wife at the kid-friendly Four Seasons is all a guy could ever want.

[Tom Naccarato]

Reading Tim's list of courses, it would seem he has mentioned EVERY course that is in San Diego with exception to Torrey Pines. He must love San Diego golf...

(I for one think it is also vastly over-rated with exception to Barona Creek. Go play Barona. it is worth the time and money if in San Diego)

[Tim Leahy]

I never called any of the courses "great" in my post. I agree completely that SD has very few if any "great" courses, which is one of the reasons I no longer live there. I was more responding to Pete's "why are there no good golf courses in SD?" Maybe I got off topic.
When I worked in SD right up the street from TP we had quite a few commuters from Temecula, so by Calif. standards I call it a suburb.

[Kalen Braley]

Speaking of San Diego and So cal in general....

I was wondering if we have any sneak peaks or info leaks on where the next KP will be held.  I'm a busy guy and gotta get that schedule lined up months in advance.     Ok maybe not, but I am curious.

Also any word on the Kings Putter itself?  After Tom H assembled a masterful lineup we Northerners still pulled off the unlikely upset after being huge underdogs in almost every match.  So I think he ought to get the putter on his mantle for at least a few months.   

[Scott Stambaugh]

Down in SD a while back for four rounds of golf.  First three rounds at privates, last round played at a public course suggested by a friend.  Trust me, he says.

So we drive east for about 1/2 hour, up and up and up.

A few details about this place-

-6,000 yards from the tips (the scorecard actually recommended the tips only be played by 0-11 handicappers!)

-Cart mandatory (between #2 and #3 seemed like a fifteeen minute drive across a winding and twisting bridge that looked like something out of an Indiana Jones movie)

-Blind shots all over the place

-Blind bunkers everywhere

-Blind lakes where there weren't blind bunkers

-Trees encroaching everywhere (I swear, on the par 3 ninth, the opening to hit it through was about ten yards wide)

On paper, the course seemed to have all the ingredients for a disappointing round.  But, quite the contrary.  The experience was incredible.  I have never played a more demanding 6,000 yard golf course, ever.

Can anyone tell me where this is?

Scott

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