The Gap...................

[JSlonis]

I would counter Marzlof's argument above about players swinging to hard with todays equipment with...

The modern tour golf swing is much easier on the body than the "ole' reverse C".  There is considerably less strain on the back. Also with modern equipment came graphite shafts, sensicore shafts and the like, which are all less stressful on the body.  Another point to consider is that the majority of modern tour players are in much better physical condition than their predecessors.

Tiger isn't going anywhere, he is no Jodie Mudd or Bill Rodgers.  Tiger had Jack's major records posted where most kids hung Farah Faucette.  Based on his past record I can't see him bailing out early on his career.  There has never been a player before with a record like Tiger's.  3 straight US Junior's followed by 3 straight US Am's, followed by 7 of the last 11 majors.  There have been kids and pros who have burned out, it sure doesn't appear Tiger is one of them.

[guest]

FF, JS you aren't that old

[Patrick_Mucci]

John K,

Look at all the majors Nicklaus's competitors won.

Player, Trevino, Watson, Palmer.

Look at all the Majors Tigers competitors have won ??
Has anybody else won more than two ?

[TEPaul]

John Conley:

Clearly you need to know what Tiger Woods's career will be before you have an opinion on the type and caliber of golfer he is. That will take a series of assumptions on your part I suppose or else some period of waiting for his career to end.

He's 26 years old right now having been on tour for around five years. What he's done to date is absolutely awesome--probably unprecedented!

Weighing what Woods has done to date is apparently good enough for some to offer an opinion of how he stacks up against the best who've played the game and that includes the opinions of Jack Nicklaus and apparently every other "great" that's alive today!

If what he's done so far is good enough for them to have an opinion on him as to how he stacks up it's good enough for me--but if you need to wait until his career is over that's fine too, I'm sure!

As for your question about my mention that "his career has just begun" would you possibly settle for "his career may be at the end of the beginning"?

[John_Conley]

Tom Paul:

How can you keep saying that the record of Mr. Woods to date is "unprecedented"?  Bobby Jones certainly matched his achievements, and Shivas makes the case that Nicklaus was in the same league, possibly even the same ballpark.

I say that it is possibly erroneous to assume that his dominance will continue based merely on the observation that he's dominant now.  You say that I'm waiting until his career is over to call him a great player?  !!    I must honestly say I have no idea why you'd say that in this context.  It comes completely from out of the blue.

Tiger is a great player.  We all know that.  Playing his best, there has never been anyone better.  There has never been another without weaknesses or holes in their game.  Dominant today, his only quest is to prolong his period of dominance - measured by many with the category "Major Championships Won".  He may win 20.  He may win 30.  He may win a dozen and have trouble winning more because of a slip in his level of play, better competition, or a combination.  

Just don't forget... he may simply stop winning because he doesn't feel as though he has any more to prove.

Go back just a few years when:
THE BEST BASKETBALL PLAYER IN THE WORLD DIDN'T PLAY BASKETBALL.
THE BEST FOOTBALL PLAYER IN THE WORLD DIDN'T PLAY FOOTBALL.
THE BEST HOCKEY PLAYER IN THE WORLD DIDN'T PLAY HOCKEY.

Michael Jordan grew bored and dabbled in something else.  Deion Sanders, the only player I've ever seen DOMINATE a game without playing on offense, was steering toward baseball to reduce the likelihood of injury.  Mario Lemieux retired because of illness and injury.

If we have a time in recent history when others left their sport AT THE TOP OF THEIR GAME and we have a time 75 years ago when a GOLFER did it - I can toss in that Mickey Wright did the same thing if you need ANOTHER example - it seems POSSIBLE that it could happen to another athlete.  Possibly even Tiger.

[JakaB]

John,

The best football player in the world who didn't play football was Jim Brown...Deion Sanders was weak...a skilled soccer player lucky enough to be stuck in a real game at the right time.

[JakaB]

Tiger does have much in common with Jim Brown and considering we very rarely talk about architecture anymore...suppose Tiger would star in a remake of the Dirty Dozen...what character would he play and who would be some co-stars.

[John Foley]

The last time I looked

Dan Marino played untill the end of his career and so did Wayne Gretzky.

The only know against Tiger right now is someone has to take him shot by shot thru the final 18 and defeat him.

Nicklaus had Miller, Watson, Trevino & a few others. Other than Bob May, has anyone given him a game when he's been on? Not even close, but I hold out hope.

[TEPaul]

John Conley:

For the last time I'm not talking about what Tiger Woods MAY DO sometime in the future--although you clearly are! That's completely speculative and anyone knows that. You've given me all kinds of careers of great players from the past--and I'm just as aware of them as you are! That will be interesting information to compare to Woods sometime in the future depending on what he does in the future.

But this is now--his career to date! That's what we're looking at and others are too--that's fact and it can be compared to anyone else in a commensurate time frame in their careers---even including Jones with his short career.

And you ask me how I can keep saying Woods's career to date is unprecendented. Maybe I can't, maybe I shouldn't have said it that way because what I'm really talking about is what Woods's career to date in this day and age says about him in a comparison to the greats of other eras!

And maybe I shouldn't even be stating what I think about him compared to the greats of other eras, but what I'm trying to tell you is this in not my opinion solely, it appears to be that of Jack Nicklaus too (and many others in that sport)--and his opinion is about as valuable as I could imagine one could be.

Sure people are going to speculate that Nicklaus is saying those things about Woods for ulterior reasons and that he doesn't really mean it. In my opinon that's crap--Nicklaus means it sincerely or he wouldn't be saying it. He believes it about Woods just the way Jones believed it about Nicklaus.

I don't have any unusual insight or understanding into champion golfers, how they get that way, what the key is or whatever, but when I hear one who should know better than anyone (actually far more than just one champion golfer--many of them) I tend to listen carefully and consider what they're saying!

But everyone's entitled to their own opinion even if it runs contrary to those who clearly, in my opinion, know far more about this subject than they do!