[Dave_Miller]

To the Treehouse:
This topic may have been discussed in the past but I am not sure.

Two weeks ago I had the opportunity to play Wannamoissett CC once again. Located in Rumford RI just outside of Providence near Pawtucket. Home of the Northeast Amateur Championship.

Wannamoissett is a terrific golf course with a great routing, very challenging Par 4 and Par 3 holes (only one Par 5 on the course No. 17); excellent bunker complexes and very challenging greens.

However the entire course is in a residential neighborhood and is located on 90 acres. (Maybe 92 I can't recall which). 

The most unique feature of the course, however, is that you never have the feeling of being crowded or closed in despite the small geography the course is located on. I have played other courses in the area on similar size properties that have a very confining feeling.

My question is-  are there other courses which are designed so well, on similar size properties that they give the feeling of playing a much larger property, have similar challenging holes and greens, etc.?

Wannamoissett is an absolute gem.

Fairways and Greens
Dave

[David_Tepper]

Dave -

Claremont CC in Oakland, CA is certainly worth consideration. It is a par-68 course that can't sit on more than 100 acres. It does have a couple of criss-cross fairways and two par-3's that are 200+ yards.

The course has recently completed a Tom Doak restoration/renovation.

DT

[John Mayhugh]

Wannamoissett is a course that Ran has profiled but I hadn't read that profile in some time.  Thanks, Dave, for bringing it back up.  I need to be sure to see it next time I'm in that part of the world.

It seems that this is a must-study course.  I've seen plenty of crappy courses built on small properties, but not many good ones.  To have a very good routing & never feel crowded on so little acreage is quite the accomplishment.

[Michael Moore]

Dave -

In order that Wannamoisett does not slide down the slippery slope of urban mythology, with the next generation claiming that it occupies 75 acres and was built with teams of mastadons, we must stick to the facts.

The course is on 105ish acres.

Great, great course.

[Bob_Huntley]

Dallas Country Club comes to mind. I believe it has less than 100 acres but the Texas State Amateur was held there a couple of years ago and rebuffed all but a half dozen players shooting par or less.

Bob

[Dave_Miller]

Dave -

In order that Wannamoisett does not slide down the slippery slope of urban mythology, with the next generation claiming that it occupies 75 acres and was built with teams of mastadons, we must stick to the facts.

The course is on 105ish acres.

Great, great course.

Michael:
Must respectfully disagree.  It may have originally been built on 105 acres but the members told me there was land sold off around WWII and the actual golf course sits on 90 or 92 acres but whatever there are no crisscross fairways or foolish holes in a residential neighborhood. 90 or 100 it is a great course.  As a comparison my home club Charles River has 214 acres.
Best
Dave

[Sam Morrow]

Dallas Country Club comes to mind. I believe it has less than 100 acres but the Texas State Amateur was held there a couple of years ago and rebuffed all but a half dozen players shooting par or less.

Bob

Dallas Country Club is on a very quirky piece of property. First off the practice tee is one of the most unique I've ever seen as it gives you a feeling that you're in a batting cage. The first hole is tucked between the range and I believe it's #11. After 1 you go over a big bridge that takes you over Mockingbird Lane (I think it's Mockingbird). Numbers 2 through 10 are on the north site of the road and are tucked in to say the least, I know last time I played I pulled one out of bounds on 3 and was maybe 40 feet from the hole. After you play 10 you go back across the street to finish the course. I get a kick out of the short par 5 11th, you can hit a block off the tee and be in Starbucks.

All in all Dallas Country Club is a fun golf course but quite quirky on that tiny parcel of land.

[Dave_Miller]

Dave -

Claremont CC in Oakland, CA is certainly worth consideration. It is a par-68 course that can't sit on more than 100 acres. It does have a couple of criss-cross fairways and two par-3's that are 200+ yards.

The course has recently completed a Tom Doak restoration/renovation.

DT

David:

Are crisscross fairways somewhat common in the Oakland area.  Sequoia in the Oakland Hills also has this feature.
Best
Dave

[michael j fay]

I believe that Wannamoisett is 96 acres including clubhouse, parking lot and pool.
The course is over 6,700 yards par 69. Has hosted the Northeast Amateur for 48 years.

Across town in East Providence is the Metacomet Golf Club, also built by Ross. It occupies 87 acres and is a fine test, 6500 yards par 70.

If I am not mistaken (and I'm sure I'll hear about if I am) Marion occupies just over 100 acres.

[Dave_Miller]

I believe that Wannamoisett is 96 acres including clubhouse, parking lot and pool.
The course is over 6,700 yards par 69. Has hosted the Northeast Amateur for 48 years.

Across town in East Providence is the Metacomet Golf Club, also built by Ross. It occupies 87 acres and is a fine test, 6500 yards par 70.

If I am not mistaken (and I'm sure I'll hear about if I am) Marion occupies just over 100 acres.

Mike:
Would agree with the 96 acres including Clubhouse, parking lots and pool area.
Best
Dave

[David_Tepper]

Dave -

I have never played Sequoyah and did not know it had crossing fairways.

Claremont is the only Bay Area course I knew of that had them.

Mir Vista, Orinda, Richmond and Diablo are other East Bay courses roughly built in the same time period as Claremont and Sequoyah. I don't think they have crossing holes.  I can't be positive about Mir Vista, as I have never played it.

DT

[TX Golf]

Sam,

You were pretty much spot on about DCC. However, you really must have botched a shot to go OB on the 3rd hole. It is only about 120 yards from the tips, with a huge bunker complex to the left, and then another ten yards or so of space before you get to the OB fence. I play out at DCC a few times a week and I still am yet to post a great score. It is Par 71 and about 6300 from the tips, and my best score is a 69 (I play to a 0-1 index). When you look at it on the scorecard it should be a cakewalk.

It is extremely narrow and it also uses turtle creek to help extend some length. The creek cuts through holes 4,5, and 8 on the front nine and forces the play to lay up off the tee. The fourth is a par 5 that require an 3 wood or for a longer hitter an iron of the tee. The fifth hole is a par four but requires about the exact same distance lay-up, forcing about 160-180 to the green depending on how frisky you want to get with the water.

The 11th hole is a fun short par 5 with a cool bunkering scheme and the downtown Dallas skyline directly in the distance. Between the 11th, 12th, and 13th holes I don't know if there is a stretch of golf anywhere in the world where more cars can be hit by golf balls. Preston Rd (to the right of 11) and Hillcrest Rd (to the right of 12) are always packed with cars and there are usually a few problems a day with cars being hit.

All in all, DCC is an extremely good golf course considering what they have to work with. I personally would prefer Claremont as it is much more unique and has a much more interesting piece of property.

Robert

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

You were pretty much spot on about DCC. However, you really must have botched a shot to go OB on the 3rd hole. It is only about 120 yards from the tips, with a huge bunker complex to the left, and then another ten yards or so of space before you get to the OB fence. I play out at DCC a few times a week and I still am yet to post a great score. It is Par 71 and about 6300 from the tips, and my best score is a 69 (I play to a 0-1 index). When you look at it on the scorecard it should be a cakewalk.

It is extremely narrow and it also uses turtle creek to help extend some length. The creek cuts through holes 4,5, and 8 on the front nine and forces the play to lay up off the tee. The fourth is a par 5 that require an 3 wood or for a longer hitter an iron of the tee. The fifth hole is a par four but requires about the exact same distance lay-up, forcing about 160-180 to the green depending on how frisky you want to get with the water.

The 11th hole is a fun short par 5 with a cool bunkering scheme and the downtown Dallas skyline directly in the distance. Between the 11th, 12th, and 13th holes I don't know if there is a stretch of golf anywhere in the world where more cars can be hit by golf balls. Preston Rd (to the right of 11) and Hillcrest Rd (to the right of 12) are always packed with cars and there are usually a few problems a day with cars being hit.

All in all, DCC is an extremely good golf course considering what they have to work with. I personally would prefer Claremont as it is much more unique and has a much more interesting piece of property.

Robert

Robert,

I put it OB to that back left pin, I hit a little pull. I was a little jacked up the day I did it because I'd opened birdie-eagle. The course certainly plays tougher than the card would indicated but you can really make hay on that front 9!

[Anthony Gray]

   How many acres is The Old Course?

[TX Golf]

Sam,

That makes sense then, especially because you have to make sure to get it back there due to the bunker and huge slope that wants to kick anything short to the right.

[Sam Morrow]

Sam,

That makes sense then, especially because you have to make sure to get it back there due to the bunker and huge slope that wants to kick anything short to the right.

That was a fun day, it's tough to shoot 68 hitting wedge OB.

[TX Golf]

I guess you haven't had the same issues that I do out there.... I consider myself to be a very good putter but can't read those greens if my life depends on it. They have also had some maintenance issues with the Bent grass greens but their new super seems to have them on the mend.

[Sam Morrow]

I guess you haven't had the same issues that I do out there.... I consider myself to be a very good putter but can't read those greens if my life depends on it. They have also had some maintenance issues with the Bent grass greens but their new super seems to have them on the mend.

I've been told everything breaks towards downtown, I'm not very smart so I listen to that advice.

[Michael Moore]

Michael:
Must respectfully disagree.  It may have originally been built on 105 acres but the members told me there was land sold off aroung WWII and the actual golf course sits on 90 or 92 acres but whatever there are no crisscross fairways or foolish holes in a residential neighborhood. 90 or 100 it is a great course.  As a comparison my home club Charles River has 214 acres.
Best
Dave

OK, I defer to Fay and blame Morrissett. Sorry about that.

Shoot me an e, as I am constantly visiting in Newton.

[PCCraig]

Wilmette GC in Illinois was built on about 85 acres but plays to 6400 yards.

I played Weston GC outside Boston this past weekend and it wasn't built on much more land.

[Adam_Messix]

I think Cherokee CC in Knoxville is on extremely small acreage, I'm thinking in the ballpark of 87 acres but I know someone with better connections will have a definitive answer.

[Sean Leary]

How big is the property the Lake Course at Olympic sits on? How about SFGC?

[Kyle Henderson]

Bartley Cavanaugh, a Sacramento municipal course (P.B. Dye) is on about 90 acres of what began as a dead flat property. It feels very cramped. Buried elephant mounds separate most of the holes, often creating corridors which are barely 30 yards wide.

With the exception of very special properties, I would think most golf-oriented projects on smaller parcels would be better off as nine or twelve hole projects. Certainly, aiming for a par of 72 will neccessitate too many compromises in routing and overall course quality 99.9% of the time. Agreed?

[Jeff_Mingay]

While it's overall design can't compare to Wannamoissett, Marine Drive Golf Club, in Vancouver (mid 1920s, A.V. Macan), features a smart routing which utilizes all of about 96 acres quite well.

[TX Golf]

I believe SFGC is on around 180 acres.... but that is by no means a definite answer.

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