[Joel_Stewart]

Without seeing the old photos I'm not sure what to make of these?  Jon, since Wilshire is not a Max Behr original design, why do you say good by Max?

Sadly I played golf with Kyle Phillips yesterday and forgot completely to ask him about Wilshire.  If my memory serves me, this was going to be a parceled out restoration, with much work in the future???

[Jon Spaulding]

Without seeing the old photos I'm not sure what to make of these?  Jon, since Wilshire is not a Max Behr original design, why do you say good by Max?

Sadly I played golf with Kyle Phillips yesterday and forgot completely to ask him about Wilshire.  If my memory serves me, this was going to be a parceled out restoration, with much work in the future???

Max was a prominent member of Wilshire; certain sections of the course are (were) eerily similar to his other work in SCA. I find it hard to imagine that he, or his alarming ego did not have a say in changes to the course, or possibly the original design, should the timelines match up.

I'm not aware of this being a parceled out restoration. But hey, let's bring in Harbottle for some more bunkering!

Perhaps you can locate Kyle and find out the logic of this bunkering style, and what, if any historic documents we worked off to make such a decision.

There is "some" decent news in this, photos to follow as time permits.

[Mike Benham]

There is "some" decent news in this, photos to follow as time permits.

You won closest to the hole?

[Ian Larson]

Yeah, is it just me or are these the bunkers we would rave about at Cal Club but seem completely out of place at Wilshire? Can this even be considered a restoration? Especially if it's not sensitive to the original...at all?

It may not be Kyle, it may be the membership wanting him to do work a-la-Cal Club.

The barrancas are the stars of this course. If a sensitive restoration with the bunkers...maybe spicing them up a tad bit....but then going balls to the walls with the barrancas to really make them pop would have been a homerun in my book.

[David Stamm]

Yeah, is it just me or are these the bunkers we would rave about at Cal Club but seem completely out of place at Wilshire? Can this even be considered a restoration? Especially if it's not sensitive to the original...at all?

It may not be Kyle, it may be the membership wanting him to do work a-la-Cal Club.

The barrancas are the stars of this course. If a sensitive restoration with the bunkers...maybe spicing them up a tad bit....but then going balls to the walls with the barrancas to really make them pop would have been a homerun in my book.

This is spot on, Ian. I do not claim to have seen every old pic available of Wislhire, but the ones I have seen from the early days look nothing like this. Assuming for a moment that they did look somewhat like this, the work that has just been done is eye jarring.

[Matt_Cohn]

A neat coincidence is that an old aerial view is available on Bing/Live, while a new aerial view is available on Google Maps. A cool way to compare.

Google (new): http://maps.google.com/maps?oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&q=wilshire+cc&fb=1&gl=us&hq=wilshire+cc&cid=0,0,11743749165536739665&ei=QJobTMqYJouINs7-rPkM&ved=0CBYQnwIwAA&hnear=&ll=34.077532,-118.330398&spn=0.001546,0.00515&t=h&z=18

Bing (old): http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=34.077540624478246~-118.33055055045355&lvl=18&sty=h

[Jon Spaulding]

There is "some" decent news in this, photos to follow as time permits.

You won closest to the hole?

Depends on the hole, Octo Viagro.

[David Stamm]

There is "some" decent news in this, photos to follow as time permits.

You won closest to the hole?

Depends on the hole, Octo Viagro.

It used to be that's all it took with you, right?

[Jon Spaulding]

There is "some" decent news in this, photos to follow as time permits.

You won closest to the hole?

Depends on the hole, Octo Viagro.

It used to be that's all it took with you, right?

It's a bitch shooting blanks.

[Jon Spaulding]

#1 tee shot - mucho superfluoso bunkeramos


#2 tee shot (insert Huckaby SIGH....)


#2, more de-alpinization. Kyle, you soared with Cal Club and now you fall.....Pai Mei will get you....


#2, ditch adjacent to green, OK Kyle, we love you again....


#4, front green restored


#4, tee shot view

[Kirk Gill]

Thanks for the photos, Jon. Might not the look of those bunkers soften with time? If not, wow. That #4 green looks like a hoot, though.

[DMoriarty]

Wow.  Not at all what I was expecting with these photos . . .  .  Wilshire has always been a very good under-the-radar course; quirky, sporty, a terrific routing making the most of about the only feature on the course, the barrancas.  A very solid course, just a step below the top notch in the area.  (Were it in the Mid-Atlantic or had it a better known designer we'd never hear the end of its praises.)  I had extremely high hopes for the restoration, and while can't say too much without getting out there personally, the photos leave me a bit perplexed.  

Jon "You'll Get Nothing and Like It" Spaulding,  
Is it my imagination, or are these guys on a mission to reduce all of California's courses to a single bunker style?     I don't ever recall seeing a photograph from Wilshire that looked anything like these?  Have you?  Also, while the course was no means sparsely bunkered, I don't recall the course (or photos) looking this cluttered.  
 
Did they really chop down, move, the hill guarding the 2nd green?   Why???

There are some things I like in the photos, so hopefully there was some progress along with the rest?  

As for your comments re Max Behr, I don't think the timelines match up.  And I think it would be a mistake to underestimate Norman MacBeth.   Perhaps Behr's SC work looks like Wilshire because Wilshire was a strong influence on Behr?  

[Jon Spaulding]

Hi David; was looking at historic aerials this morning; believe it's safe to say this ain't no stinkin' restoration. They apparently added 60 bunkers. There are not as many in the photos, albeit more than existed say 3 years ago. ALso, the bunkering was a bit less oval in nature, somewhere between today's "Harbottlistic" shapes and what would have been there a couple years ago.

Max moved out here in 1918, after his wife passed away. I wouldn't underestimate MacBeth for a moment, and it's certainly one or the other...or both. Hopefully, you or Tommy will have some time to research the subject.

This reeks of the work over at Hacienda; which has overly shaped bunkering on a Watson course. We are evolving into a homogenized state with regards bunker style, color, placement.

I have not seen any historic ground level photos of #2, hopefully some will turn up. Here are a couple of before shots.

#17 - before


#2 - before

[Brad Tufts]

In that lower pic, it looks like someone tried to putt their way out, only to have it return to their feet...

[Jon Spaulding]

In that lower pic, it looks like someone tried to putt their way out, only to have it return to their feet...

A likely case of someone in the charity deal attempting to "feel the architecture".....

[Joel_Stewart]

I talked with a member today who was involved in the restoration and the comments made toward Wilshire are "laughable" in his mind.  As he said, it's a case of armchair architects who don't anything about the history or the instructions given to Kyle Phillips that lead to these wild conclusions.

To clear the air, they haven't heard or have any documents supporting Max Bear working at the course, period.

The phase 1 of the restoration process which was performed during last years terrible economic crisis is not the end all.  When they might start on some of the other projects is up in the air.

To clarify the bunker style, Macbeth originally built as they call it, trench like bunkers.  After playing Cypress Point on opening day with Mackenzie, Macbeth brought in Mackenzie to assist in rebuilding the bunkers at Wilshire.

Macbeth then continued to work on Wilshire for many years after that.  3 or 4 greens have been moved as an example and bunkers have been added and others filled in.  What the club had to decide is which year or feature did they want to restore of keep.   The club is very happy with the results of this urban course.

[Jon Spaulding]

To clarify the bunker style, Macbeth originally built as they call it, trench like bunkers.  After playing Cypress Point on opening day with Mackenzie, Macbeth brought in Mackenzie to assist in rebuilding the bunkers at Wilshire.

Joel, perhaps you can help silence the laughter:

Does the member have evidence of the above MacKenzie connection?

What were the instructions from the membership to Phillips?

What are the "other projects up in the air"?

[Jon Spaulding]

A few more, in order:

#5 from 9th fairway


#5 tee shot - lots of tree clearing


#5 approach


approach from alternate angle


#6 tee shot


#6 approach


#7


#7 from side

[Neil_Crafter]

I talked with a member today who was involved in the restoration and the comments made toward Wilshire are "laughable" in his mind.  As he said, it's a case of armchair architects who don't anything about the history or the instructions given to Kyle Phillips that lead to these wild conclusions.

To clear the air, they haven't heard or have any documents supporting Max Bear working at the course, period.

The phase 1 of the restoration process which was performed during last years terrible economic crisis is not the end all.  When they might start on some of the other projects is up in the air.

To clarify the bunker style, Macbeth originally built as they call it, trench like bunkers.  After playing Cypress Point on opening day with Mackenzie, Macbeth brought in Mackenzie to assist in rebuilding the bunkers at Wilshire.

Macbeth then continued to work on Wilshire for many years after that.  3 or 4 greens have been moved as an example and bunkers have been added and others filled in.  What the club had to decide is which year or feature did they want to restore of keep.   The club is very happy with the results of this urban course.

Joel
I would really appreciate you following up on the suggested Mackenzie connection with MacBeth at Wilshire, as this has never come up on the radar of our little Mackenzie research group. Seems quite specific too that MacBeth played with Mac on the opening day of Cypress, which, if true, we also did not know about. Appreciate your help
Neil

[Kirk Gill]

Joel, if the members are satisfied, then that's all that really matters. They're the ones playing and enjoying the course, and paying for the privelige. I'm just beard-pulling.

Prior to the restoration, the bunkers had a sharp-edged appearance. To my eye, from photos only, it seemed to fit. I'm not of the camp that believes that all bunkers must have some kind of rustic, lacy-edged quality. That is my personal opinion, and shouldn't be an affront to anyone. Long before the restoration, in those old photos provided by The Emperor, the use of the barranca is really interesting, and would have had a profound puckering effect on the golfer. That sort of look wasn't restored, and perhaps couldn't be restored. Us outside folks who have an interest in such things are likely "laughable" to those in the know, but you don't have to be an armchair architect to have an opinion, or participate in a frank and open discussion of a golf course.

[DMoriarty]

Max moved out here in 1918, after his wife passed away. I wouldn't underestimate MacBeth for a moment, and it's certainly one or the other...or both. Hopefully, you or Tommy will have some time to research the subject.

Not planning on researching it any time soon, but  I do recall seeing references to Behr and MacBeth playing together in team matches.   I was thinking that Wilshire predated Behr's known design work, and while their might have been a short overlap, it sounds as if this was pretty much the case.   

As for the hill in front of Number 2, I just always thought that was a fascinating and unique feature.

_____________________________________________

I talked with a member today who was involved in the restoration and the comments made toward Wilshire are "laughable" in his mind.  As he said, it's a case of armchair architects who don't anything about the history or the instructions given to Kyle Phillips that lead to these wild conclusions.

Joel,

I am sorry the member feels that way, I doubt anyone meant any offense.   I can only speak for myself, but I certainly wasn't trying to draw any "wild conclusions" or, for that matter, any conclusions at all.   As I said, I don't know the details and haven't seen the person, which I hope helps explain the confusion. 

Anyway, I do appreciate the member taking the time to clarify a few things.   For example, I am glad to hear that I am not losing my mind regarding the bunker style.  No wonder they look so much like Mackenzie restoration bunkers-- that was the plan!

Fascinating about Macbeth playing Cypress and then bringing Mackenzie in to revise the bunkers.  Given that both Mackenzie and Macbeth had relationships with Behr, this shouldn't be surprising, but I had never heard it before.   Like I said, I don't ever recall seeing any Wilshire photos that looked like these, but it has probably been close to 10 years since I have even looked at the photos on the walls there.   

As I think I said above, Wilshire is a wonderful but under appreciated course.   I am sure the comments and curiosity result from a fondness for the place. 

[DMoriarty]

I think this old photo (and others like it) might help explain the confusion regarding the bunker restoration.    According to the USC photo archive, this was taken at the 1931 Los Angeles Open.   



This was only two or three years after Cypress opened, so obviously a Mackenzie type bunker restoration may have been ongoing or to come, but this particular bunker doesn't look anything like those in the photos of the restoration work.

Again, I am not trying to draw any hard and fast conclusions, just trying to learn a bit about a wonderful golf course.

[Tom MacWood]

Kyle Phillips does not restore golf courses, he redesigns them. Maybe there is one out there, but not aware of one single sensitive restoration on his resume.

[Mike Cirba]

I'm not sure about "restoration" either, but those bunkers certainly scream "look at me".

On what looiks to be some interesting and subtle land forms, I'm not sure they blend.

[Neil_Crafter]

Joel
Would really like to hear from you further re the Mackenzie connection with Wilshire.
Thanks.

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