The restoration of Wilshire CC

[Joel_Stewart]

I'm last on the list of hearing about these things but understand that Wilshire CC is going to be restored by Kyle Phillips.   Kyle obviously has done some amazing work in the restoration field, Incline Village in Lake Tahoe, Del Paso in Sacramento and of course Cal Club in South San Francisco.

The feature interview with Sandy Tatum only briefly touched on Wilshire CC which was Sandy's home course in LA while growing up and in high school.  He talked about the barancca and how it was a serious factor and his disappointment when they filled it in.

I would love to know if the club has the interest in restoring these major features, I am sure that Kyle probably does.  

I stole this photo from Tommy to display.

[TX Golf]

Kyle seems to be on a roll... He has had some great opportunities and seems to have done great work on all of them.

[Michael Robin]

Wow! Joel or Tommy, is that the 16th green? Stunning pictures line the walls of the Locker Room that show how cool the Barranca was. Also, the original Clubhouse was gorgeous too.

[Tom Naccarato]

Joel, As I said before, I have no doubts what-so-ever that Kyle and Mark are going to do there very best here. Wilshire CC is a special place and I'm still grateful for each and every time I've been fortunate to play it. In fact, I might be playing there on Thursday.

If Phillips & Co are allowed to recover that creek bed, which I believe is their full intention, its going to take a lot of work, time and patience. The creek bed, I believe was a victim of the great storms of 1937 which got many great courses here in the Southland, virtually turning most of them into riverbeds. Wilshire was no exception, as was lakeside, Riviera, LACC, Oakmont(Glendale) Valley Club of Montecito, San Gabriel, etc. The list is huge of those courses that were damaged because of it.

My favorite holes at Wishire

#2 (at the green)
#3 (from tee to green. The original creek bed was rough and wild and trouble!)
#4 (Probably a Chasm-type hole originally.)
#6 (Another great one-shotter over the creek bed. Today it isn't even close to its former self)
#9 (bunker carcases along the left side off of the tee. I figure at one time it required a rather interesting carry off of the tee trying to keep it right, but you had a perfect thing to aim for--The El Rey!)
#10 (two things of note here: 1. the current par 3, 10th is a product of Jack Croke's. It features some Seth Raynor-like shaping and bunering around a rather long and narrow green which is set at an angle from the tee) 2. the original 10th played from pretty much the same teeing ground, but actually made a right turn around the fence to a green that was tucked in that corner. Today it is all parking lot, but the idea back then was you could have an interesting play to that green if you chose to go over the original parking lot.
#15 (Pretty uninteresting tee shot until you realize it was important in regards to getting a clear shot on to the green. The hole just gets better and better from that point. The green is a boomerang, wrapped around a bunker with a small Lion's Mouth depression sitting some 15-20 yards in front of the green.)
#16 (Another hole which gets better as you get further into it--just like a good Cabernet.) The green complex, if they can restore that--WOW!  Lots has to be done to that though, as the green has been built up quite substantially since the floods., but they
ll have a lot to work with in regards to building the creek up again. They are going to need a GREAT shaper.
#18 (Probably a tie with #3 for the best hole(s) on the course. As Tom Doak would say in the Confidential Guide, !!!

Michael, that's the 16th, and here is the 18th right next to it:




Do notice the island bunker on #17 below

[Michael Robin]

Great pics Tommy. Did you mean that the 7th is the par 3, or was there a different configuration to the difficult dog left par 4 6th?

[David Stamm]

This is great news. Wilshire is one of my favorite courses and is a true gem. I'm sure Kyle will do an excellent job based on what I've seen from Cal Club.

[Jon Spaulding]

Very exciting. I love this golf course.....can I get a second on the highest amount of quirk in SCA? A decent restoration will only magnify that and make the place truly shine.

TN, what year was #10 changed from a par 4 to the current Croke version?

Also, is there any record of Behr being involved in design changes on the property? Couple of places out there which I thought looked similar to some of his other work....i.e. the current greenside bunkering on #17. I can't imagine that ol' Max would have been able to keep his thoughts to himself while a member there.

[Joel_Stewart]

Tommy:

Don't you think with the sophisticated drainage systems that are now available, restoring the dry creek bed would be possible?

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Tommy, I think the floods were 39 not 1937.  Whatever.
There is a HUGE opportunity at Wilshire, but does anyone know any member who feels as we do?  I don't.

[Tom Huckaby]

I too love this course...think it would be really cool if restored like those pics... but I too wonder about Lynn's question.  I know two members there - when I asked them about this, their reactions were similar  "I can't believe they're f***ing up our course."

SOMEONE has to be in favor of it if it's going to happen... right?

TH

[Tom Naccarato]

Tommy, I think the floods were 39 not 1937.  Whatever.
There is a HUGE opportunity at Wilshire, but does anyone know any member who feels as we do?  I don't.

Lynn, The Great "40 Hour Storm" started on February 12th, 1937 and didn't end for several days after that. The amount of rain that came down at that time oddly enough wasn't more then what we had a few years ago during those huge rains, but with the river system in the LA basin, it was enough to flood almost the entire Southland. Entire cities such as Olinda were swept off of the map never to exist again.

The weather throughout the country that year took a huge toll. Even Long Island was flooded from a rather large hurricane, along with Cincinnati and other towns in the midwest.

[Tom Naccarato]

Lynn, I stand corrected, it was a series of floods from 1932, 1933, 1937, 1938 and maybe even 1939 that did a lot of damage.

[Ian Larson]

To restore Wilshires barrancas where they remain dry creek beds will be a major undertaking similar to what Riviera did with their barranca. To those who dont know, Riviera brought in the Army Corps of Engineers and put in a culvert "big enough to drive a truck through" underneath its barranca to handle the waterflow.

Wilshires barranca obviously hasnt been modified like this and has running water from street runoff year round. When the winter rains come they take on so much water they overflow and flood the surrounding holes. The barrancas need to either be reconstructed to take on a larger volume of water, deeper or wider. Or the areas that get flooded need to be raised to a higher elevation. But none of this will ensure that the barranca stays dry. To keep it dry, or drier, they need to do what Riviera did with a huge underground concrete culvert to contain water flow.

If they are definetely going to break ground they need to do it right. And what I mean by doing it right is addressing the flooding issue while restoring the course at the same time. You dont want to keep coming back to the membership wanting to tear up the course, especially that one. Wilshire needs to be a one and done project that includes addressing the engineering of the barrancas flow control and volume capacity, not just doing a restoration on the surface to take it back to the '20s.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Ian, good point.  Wilshire is in a tough spot.  Who pays for this correction of off street drainage.  Done right, restoration could be a big bill.  Done without correcting this and the restoration won't be worth the effort IMHO.  I bet they redo a few bunkers, hybrid bermuda in the fairways and that is about it.  Just a guess.  There are plenty of holes to fix without addressing 16, 18 and 10.

[David Panzarasa]

I too love this course...think it would be really cool if restored like those pics... but I too wonder about Lynn's question.  I know two members there - when I asked them about this, their reactions were similar  "I can't believe they're f***ing up our course."

SOMEONE has to be in favor of it if it's going to happen... right?

TH

I have been there a good deal recently, and the members I have talked with are beyond excited. When you walk in the side door, there are a few giant postings with the plans for each hole. On the these "postings"  are before and after pictures for all to see. The before are obviously pictures of the holes as of today, and the after pictures are what the holes will look like with the changes. Looks amazing.
 I believe I will be there tomorrow and see what I am allowed to take pictures of. The pics show the new bunkers and moving cart paths around and such.
 But, from many of the people on the board, they are extremely happy, and some a tad confused that there is even a debate or question to this work that is going to be done.
 Seriously looks amazing, many of the holes will play much different and much better.

[Ian Larson]

David - Any pics would be great.


I know the superintendent staff there and the situation at Wilshire is typical of all clubs going through the process. The younger members absolutely love it and the older ones hate it.

And I agree with Lynn. If they dont address some issues the restoration wont be worth the effort. The flooding issue is a HUGE issue. Everytime they get a signifigant rainstorm, the handful of greens along the barranca get flooded over. Now, these greens are the original pushups and having dirty stormwater runoff from the streets of LA and Hollywood is not good for them. After the flooding the greens are left with a layer of silt that the crew shovels off. Along with the silt imagine all of the toxic oil and petroleum that comes off all the streets. Plus the flooding interrupts member play.

IMHO as a member I would want my money to go towards this first before some lipstick is put on the golf course. If that water isnt redirected through the golf course corridor, any work done to the barrancas will be a waste of time and money. And it would be a shame to do this project and not touch the barrancas that are such a defining character to Wilshire.

[Joel_Stewart]

Good answers on the drainage.  Its going to be a big project.

Here is another, what about all those trees.

[Ian Larson]

YES!  Cut 'em down. At least signifigantly thin them out. Like 80 - 90% thin them out. Starting with all the palm tree's.

[Adam Clayman]

The size of the Barranca looks like it's shrunk by what? A factor of three? Probably more like 4 fold around #18 green.



Returning the worst case functionality of the drainage needn't be rocket science. (expensive engineering) The old picture shows how Macbeth handled it.





Shocking that it floods!

Trees would still be needed protecting LZ's because of the litigious nature of the regions inhabitants. But, removing some, especially in the area near the clubhouse, would open views creating great golf visuals, capturing some of that feeling the old pic exudes.


I do have some other questions and comments about the course.

For some reason, I always felt some special quality to the 11th green. The intimacy, the setting, the need to bring one's driver to the green? I don't know what it was. But I felt it.
 Is that it in the very top center of the old aerial photo? If so, fascinating!

[Ian Larson]

Yeah, the current barrancas are like tiny aquaducts.

They really need to be restored to the original size at the very least. And even if they were I still dont think that they could handle the volume of water that comes through there in the winter storms. The difference between the  barrancas then and the barrancas now is that because everything is completely paved over and street drainage is directed towards this tributary, the stormwater has no chance of permeating through any soil and choosing its own path for natural drainage. The concrete jungle of Hollywood keeps all the stormwater on the surface and drained towards these barrancas.

By the time the storm surge reaches Wilshire the volume of water is exponentially greater than what it would have been back in the 1920's.

[Tom Naccarato]

Ian, how is it going?

Great to have your expertise on this one!

[Joel_Stewart]

Yeah, the current barrancas are like tiny aquaducts.

They really need to be restored to the original size at the very least. And even if they were I still dont think that they could handle the volume of water that comes through there in the winter storms. The difference between the  barrancas then and the barrancas now is that because everything is completely paved over and street drainage is directed towards this tributary, the stormwater has no chance of permeating through any soil and choosing its own path for natural drainage. The concrete jungle of Hollywood keeps all the stormwater on the surface and drained towards these barrancas.

By the time the storm surge reaches Wilshire the volume of water is exponentially greater than what it would have been back in the 1920's.

So what you are saying is that Wilshire is in far worse condition now.  If the little aquaducts are restored they will be able to carry far greater amounts of water away from Hollywood and the golf course.

[Ian Larson]

Joel,

The barranca's not only need to be restored they need to be re-engineered. If you look at the pictures above you will see the difference in size from 80 years ago till now. They have decreased signifigantly.

Lets say they they choose to only restore them. Meaning they make them wider and maybe deeper while at the same time restoring the "look" of the old barranca's ruggedness. IMHO once LA starts getting the heavy winter rains all the work done will be damaged, eroded and a waste of money, time and inconvenience to the members.

The barranca's that cut through Wilshire collect ALOT of stormwater that comes from upstream in Hollywood. And the stormwater brings with it all the garbage and oil from the streets.

It's a different situation today compared to 80 years ago with Wilshires barrancas. I would have to say that the original barrancas were able to accomodate the volume of stormwater coming down from the Hollywood hills. There wasnt as much pavement and concrete to prevent the water from diverting somewhere else. Now it just collects exponentially and floods out a handful of the greens and tees around them every time a good rain comes.

Like I said in the earlier post, if the membership is going to be disrupted by construction I would hope they choose to do more than just put some lipstick on the course. They need to take Riviera as an example and completely re-engineer the barrancas so they can handle the volume of water and not worry about getting flooded out every winter.



ps.....anyone that lives in the LA area and is interested in this, put on a rainsuit and go to Wilshire during a rainstorm and youll see what I mean.

[Jon Spaulding]

Bump.....

Mixed emotions on the work done here. I don't know whether to kiss the man, or get out a rope.

You would think after the success of the last few years, he would have nailed this one.

#17 approach - goodbye, Max


De-Alpinization


#11 - WTF

[Jed Peters]

My eyes! My eyes!