Who are the up and coming shapers??

[Tim Copeland]

Not the established ones/already working for an architect/been doing it forever guys..........

Im talking about new/young guys................??

[Tom_Doak]

Tim:

Do you really expect an answer to that question?

The last thing we want is for the good young ones to get a big head too quickly.

[Tim Copeland]

When has a shaper NOT had a big head and been high maintenance??

[Jim_Coleman]

    We are redoing our bunkers at Rolling Green under the supervision of Jim Nagle of Forse Design.  They are looking awesome (as we remove the eyebrows and restore them to original design), and we are very excited.  I do not know the name of our primary shaper (he was recommended by Forse), but I can tell you he is a real artist.  Maybe somebody who reads this will know.
    I can, however, add a new name to the list of shapers.  Bryan Aronchick, who happens to be the son of a member and a friend, is helping out in the shaping.  It appears that he is being given real responsibility, and that he is doing a terrific job.  He previously worked on Pete Dye's new course outside NYC.  He has a good eye and a lot of pride.  Keep an eye out.

[Jeff_Brauer]

When has a shaper NOT had a big head and been high maintenance??

Tim,

On their first course, and possibly halfway through their second......after that, they presume they know more than I do!

[Ron Farris]

I am beginning to think that the best shapers are the ones who can operate a dozer/hoe and have little or no golfing abilities. That way they do not interject or argue about design strategy of bunker locations, green structure or other design elements.  They simply do as you tell them and move on to the next feature. 

The other side of the coin is that a good shaper can make a mediocre designer (i.e. Me) look good.   

[Philippe Binette]

A young shaper / designer  is only as good as the people that surrounds him, give him guidance and freedom and the context to do the job...

The key is to have the best environment.

As far as who are they, I would say that most sites by on-site architects (C&C, Doak and others) all have 2-3 guys that would fit in that category... but you don't want to name them:

1) they might become GCA.com superstar which would ruin their personal life and any chance to pick up in a bar

2) When considering that most guys doing their first design are around 35 years old, you don't want to be considered an up and coming guy when you're about to turn 30 and have 7-8 years of experience behind you

[Tom_Doak]

Philippe:  In the architects' realm you are generally labeled an "up and coming" designer until you are 40 or 45 (or older!), so it's a term you had better get used to if you want to be successful.

Besides, "up and coming" is better than "over the hill".

Ron:  I would disagree with you on it being better if shapers don't know golf.  Jim always brings up Tony Russell, who is a great example, but he's the exception to the rule.  Jim got a lot better as a shaper the more he started to understand golf and design ... and so have all the rest of my crew.  You just have to find the combination of golf knowledge AND open-mindedness or respect for the designer.

[John Foley]

Has anypne every worked with Blaine Harrison??

He's a shaper who did a course out here in the Finger Lakes (Resivour Creek) that has some fantastic green complexes. Would love to know if he's known in the idustry and what other think of him.

[Ron Farris]

Tom:
You may be right with Tony and Jim. 
I was really looking to stir it up a bit.  I have had good and bad luck with some local shapers who know little about golf and simply do what you ask them.  Success was determined by speed and man hours of supervision. 

When I am on a piece of equipment I think as a shaper and a golfer at the same time. That is a great asset for measured in speed and relevance to golf shots. 

There are some really good OPERATORS out there, I am sure.  Is an up and coming shaper considered someone who will aspire to become a Golf Course Architect or someone who is content to Shape for others?

[Keith Cutten]

Philippe: Having worked with you, of course  I would have to agree. To become a "great" shaper, I too believe that skill and development can be most attributed to the architect(s) under which an apprentice serves. The freedom to provide input and gain knowledge from onsite debate is an experience that is second to none.

Tom: Similarly, I agree with your statements fully. Firstly, the phrase “up and coming designer” is a loose term at best. The skill and abilities of a designer should not be judged by age and/or years in the business, but instead should be based on one’s ability to visualize and develop what others cannot. Of course these skills do come with time and experience, but they also go hand in hand with an inherent ability to understand what one is seeing and then coupling that perception with the strategy of the game and the intricacies involved. 

I guess the major point I am trying to make, is that the best “shapers” I have met are also essentially designers.  It takes a keen understanding of a site, of strategy, and of the history of golf to truly be a great shaper. This knowledge must also be coupled with some sort of mentorship in the art of the craft. Hence, it is not untypical for a person of 40+ to still be referred to as an “up-and-comer”.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Philippe,
I don't know about "only as good as those around you." If an Architect wants stupid stuff built, it may come out looking sorry, but I don't know I'd automatically call the guy a bad shaper. People have families to feed and sometimes you have to do things you don't want to do.

I've worked with a shaper who was exceptional, but he's also worked on projects where he had to build things he's not all that proud of (pushed up tees that don't tie in, for example) because he had to do what the boss wanted.

While I'll agree that for a project to come out well you need a good team and leader, just because a job turns out poorly doesn't mean everyone that worked on it isn't good at what they do.

I’d nominate Joe Hancock as an up and comer, but I don’t know if a Grandfather can qualify? He must be OK though, as he was gainfully employed all summer, and his phone is still ringing.

[Norbert P]

http://www.lovemybubbles.com/OBrief.shtml 

[Ron Farris]

Philippe:
I little birdie said they thought the bunkering in the second landing area of #12 at the Prairie Club was exceptional!  I like this shaping!  Very UP & Coming!

[Norbert P]

!Achtung!  Retraction . . . Modified text . . .  I used quotation marks erroneously. The statements were never said by those given nicknames, only created by this madman with a goofy imagination.  Apologies to all for my journalistic foozle.
!******************************************************************************!
 A fine ensemble of shapers were in Walla Walla this year.  (Home of the Acme Rocket-Sled and Magnetic Bird Seed, Giant Slingshot, etc. Factory.)  Though they are well known and respected in the industry, already in the big leagues, they definitely aren't heading off into the sunset any time soon.
  Kye Goalby was the lead shaper doing remarkable things, behind him, only chronologically, was Brian Caesar, tying everything together while accentuating the positives.  Batting cleanup was Dr. Dan  Proctor, mending bones while breaking flat putts.  Yours truly even got to do some dirt pushing and digging but I mostly watched from the trenches until the pros were gone. (Many of my overtures were brutally rejected*.) 

  I have this also to say: they are Up and Coming educators of golf course design and construction.   All have years of experience building practical golf balanced with appreciations for exciting golf strategy, variability and imagery. 


*Quote from the 1974 movie "Dark Star"

  Sergeant Pinback: [making video diary entry]
"I do not like the men on this spaceship. They are uncouth and fail to appreciate my better qualities. I have something of value to contribute to this mission if they would only recognize it. Today over lunch I tried to improve morale and build a sense of camaraderie among the men by holding a humorous, round-robin discussion of the early days of the mission. My overtures were brutally rejected. These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."

[Tim Copeland]

  A fine ensemble of shapers were in Walla Walla this year.  (Home of the Acme Rocket-Sled and Magnetic Bird Seed, Giant Slingshot, etc. Factory.)  Though they are well known and respected in the industry, already in the big leagues, they definitely aren't heading off into the sunset any time soon.
  Kye "If you don't hire me your golf course will suck" Goalby was the lead shaper/exploder, behind him, only chronologically, was Brian "My favorite scouts are Lewis and Clark" Caesar, tying everything together.  Batting cleanup was Dr. Dan "The New Sheriff in Town"  Proctor, mending bones while breaking flat putts.  Yours truly even got to do some dirt pushing and digging but I mostly watched from the trenches until the pros were gone. (Many of my overtures were brutally rejected*.) 

  I have this also to say: they are Up and Coming educators of golf course design and construction.   All have years of experience building practical golf balanced with appreciations for exciting golf strategy, variability and imagery. 


Quote from the 1974 movie "Dark Star"

  Sergeant Pinback: [making video diary entry]
"I do not like the men on this spaceship. They are uncouth and fail to appreciate my better qualities. I have something of value to contribute to this mission if they would only recognize it. Today over lunch I tried to improve morale and build a sense of camaraderie among the men by holding a humorous, round-robin discussion of the early days of the mission. My overtures were brutally rejected. These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."

CANNONBALL!!!!!!

[Ronald Montesano]

John Foley, you are my twin!

Blaine Harrison did The Links at Ivy Ridge (http://www.thelinksativyridge.com) on the basis of his Reservoir Creek work.  He singlehandedly turned the course into a course, and not a golfing grounds.  I am an enormous Blaine fan, although I have no idea where he is, currently.  He is Canadian, so he might be up north.

[Scott Stambaugh]

  A fine ensemble of shapers were in Walla Walla this year.  (Home of the Acme Rocket-Sled and Magnetic Bird Seed, Giant Slingshot, etc. Factory.)  Though they are well known and respected in the industry, already in the big leagues, they definitely aren't heading off into the sunset any time soon.
  Kye "If you don't hire me your golf course will suck" Goalby was the lead shaper/exploder, behind him, only chronologically, was Brian "My favorite scouts are Lewis and Clark" Caesar, tying everything together.  Batting cleanup was Dr. Dan "The New Sheriff in Town"  Proctor, mending bones while breaking flat putts.  Yours truly even got to do some dirt pushing and digging but I mostly watched from the trenches until the pros were gone. (Many of my overtures were brutally rejected*.) 

  I have this also to say: they are Up and Coming educators of golf course design and construction.   All have years of experience building practical golf balanced with appreciations for exciting golf strategy, variability and imagery. 


*Quote from the 1974 movie "Dark Star"

  Sergeant Pinback: [making video diary entry]
"I do not like the men on this spaceship. They are uncouth and fail to appreciate my better qualities. I have something of value to contribute to this mission if they would only recognize it. Today over lunch I tried to improve morale and build a sense of camaraderie among the men by holding a humorous, round-robin discussion of the early days of the mission. My overtures were brutally rejected. These men do not want a happy ship. They are deeply sick and try to compensate by making me feel miserable. Last week was my birthday. Nobody even said "happy birthday" to me. Someday this tape will be played and then they'll feel sorry."

If you're throwing shout-outs, don't forget my man George "_________" Travis.  (I'm not touching the nickname.)

By the way, the course you were building- best logo ever.

Scott

[Norbert P]

[quote author=Scott Stambaugh link=topic=36972.msg757956#msg757956
If you're throwing shout-outs, don't forget my man George "_________" Travis.  (I'm not touching the nickname.)

Scott
[/quote]

 Didn't mean to short George on credit. He did a great job and came up with a very unique shape on one fairway and taught me a few things about tee tie-in and construction.                 

Perhaps his nickname could be "Walter" Travis Jr. since he just reclaimed his club championship recently.

[RJ_Daley]

Slag, how about them onions!? 

[Philippe Binette]

When I said: you're only as good as the team around you, I'm talking result - wise...

I'm pretty sure everybody did built stuff that they thought were stupid, but you can always figure out a way to make it work...

If you have to follow every single detail of a plan, you're not a shaper, just a machine operator

[Dave_Miller]

Not the established ones/already working for an architect/been doing it forever guys..........

Im talking about new/young guys................??

Michael Drake located in Massachusetts
Best
Dave

[John Foley]

John Foley, you are my twin!

Blaine Harrison did The Links at Ivy Ridge (http://www.thelinksativyridge.com) on the basis of his Reservoir Creek work.  He singlehandedly turned the course into a course, and not a golfing grounds.  I am an enormous Blaine fan, although I have no idea where he is, currently.  He is Canadian, so he might be up north.

Ron - That is cool -

Did you like the green work at Resivoir Creek? Some of the best around it gets ZERO pub.

We may be the only 2 geeks in western NY that know how those 2 courses are connected.

I wonder if Ian knows Blain and has every used him. I bet he could do Travis greens in his sleep.

I like Ivy Ridge alot but never never play well on the front 9. It eats my lunch.

[Randy Thompson]

Maybe me, with the world economy, I am thinking about giving up my architectural pursuit and seeking a career in shaping. A Nicklaus signature shaper has set up camp down here (South America) and is charging 30 grand a month! Shocking...more shocking are clients that are willing to pay that price in a market that during the last twelve years I have been unable to convience anyone to spend more then 2.5 million on eighteen holes. I should have taken marketing 101 in college!!

[Ronald Montesano]

I love Ivy Ridge...ever since I drove out onto its dirt six years ago, wondering what a course looked like before it became a course.  By the way, I played the most underrated Travis greens today at Orchard Park Country Club.  With the exception of the fifth, the monstrosity forced upon the course when it eliminated the old 17th and 18th, the front nine is all Travis and all good.  The fact that I went around in 37 certainly helped.