News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« on: October 21, 2008, 08:18:31 AM »
I have excerpted the following post from the Hole Sequencing thread to discuss an idea that first formed in my mind over thirty years ago while a greenskeeper at Pebble....one I feel has merit, even if for discussion purposes only. I've added some relative strength scales and maximum lengths to the original post. It's easy to see the changes when using Google Earth;

-Adam, when you state:  "Paul, You know on the surface you're right about the reverse loop, if only to get 11 downhill, but in reality I sense the sequence of holes, their ebb and flow, their mojo, would be negatively altered. Counter intuitiveness at it's finest. In a Golf's 2+2 does not equal 4 kind of way. Besides, it is not how one would walk the raw property. With Carmel Bay calling, one would not head inland at that point. Changing that turn for home would be risky.".....I don't feel its risky at all. Its only seems risky because most people feel uncomfortable changing what they already have.....they are not looking at it with a designing eye on the land in its raw state. I do.

If one views it purely on the card, the reverse sequence does a better job of balancing the ocean asset and experience.

Instead of having your ocean holes as 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and then returning to the ocean for 17 and 18, the reverse sequence course would consist of 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, on the ocean and then return for 11, 12, 13, go back inland again for 14, 15, 16, and finish with 17 and 18.....for five holes on the returning nine, versus the current 3 holes. I actually liked the sequencing provided by using the old #5 better, because it provided a pause from the ocean and then a new dramatic discovery when one rounded the corner and came to #6 tee.

....but that's not the meat of the change.

- reverse 13 would play downhill to a semi pocketed corner surrounded by trees and a good back slope. It even still works with the abomination of a halfway house and maintenance building complex that was plopped down in a great view filled open space....a bad, bad placement decision if there ever was one. I could forgive a well designed halfway house, in fact one was needed....it would be a calming place to pause with great ocean views, but why the monstrous maintenance building....there is no justification.
455 yds
Old  6
New 7

- reverse 12 would play slightly uphill to another corner...the only uphill par three since they got rid of the old #5. Not losing alot here.
200 yds
Old   5
New 7

- reverse 11 would play directly towards the ocean [like 17], but the hole would also start at the highest elevation of the course and finish at one of its lowest. It would dogleg gently left and finish in the corner with Carmel beach spreading out below.....awesome hole compared to the existing one.
445 yds
Old  6
New 9

- reverse 10 would become a left turning mini cape hole with its green occupying the current #9 site. The views of #8 promontory and the ocean edge are really good for this hole and the next, and the afternoon sun will do nothing but accent this drama.
400 yds
Old   8.5
New 8.5


- reverse 9 would play out from an elevation above the preceding green and then turn slightly right with the second shot to an uphill green site.
465 yds
Old   9
New 9

 In closing I don't feel the original routing is all that bad....routing is all about selecting among various options. I just don't feel they selected the best of the best...and besides, these guys were just amateurs anyway.  :)

 






« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 08:37:44 AM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2008, 08:28:44 AM »
Makes a lot of sense to me.
Very well explained.
Thanks for sharing!
Your new description of "reverse 11 and reverse 10" sound GREAT!!!!


-Ted

Rich Goodale

Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2008, 08:31:16 AM »
this is good thinking, paul.  your routing has a better rhythm to it than the current one.  i would miss the current 11, which i love, but c'est la vie.  of course, your thinking will never be put into place, at least in our lifetimes, but as browning said, "...ah, that our dreams should exceed our grasp........"

keep up the dreaming, buckaroo.

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2008, 09:07:50 AM »
3 great holes as opposed 2, infact all 6 holes are at least equal or better.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

jim_lewis

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2008, 09:26:09 AM »
Paul:

I was part of a small group discussion with Tom Fazio about 5 years ago, during which he said that when he plays a course, he can not resist thinking how he might have designed it differently. He specifically mentioned the idea of reversing several of the ocean-side holes at Pebble Beach. I don't recall the details of how he would do it, but I think it was very similar to your plan. His argument was that that since most amateurs tend to miss right, he would prefer to have the ocean on the left.

I don't know how serious he was, but I mentioned his idea on this site. It was roundly criticized. I wonder if that had anything to do with the source.

BTW, I recall that he said that Pine Valley was the one course that he could not imagine anyway to improve the design.

Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Tom Huckaby

Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2008, 09:37:08 AM »
This does sound cool.

But I played the holes as is the other day and well... they ain't exactly chopped liver.

 ;)

Jeff Doerr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2008, 09:48:52 AM »
Thanks Paul! Very fun to think through.

Is there history out there concerning various routings that were contemplated?
"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
the greatest practical assistance to a man in Life's struggle.”

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2008, 10:07:59 AM »
The loss of playing the current route would be a hard pill to swallow. 9 and 10 are still some of the favorite holes of many people. And that comes after the great 8th. Two holes that stand up proudly after what is a tough act to follow.

The new proposed 12th would play directly at the those houses and Gene Hackman's old house would probably get pelted, resulting in a lawsuit, creating another 17 hole behemoth.

The loss of 13 as it plays now would also be a tough pill. And not because I closed out Bruce 6 & 5 in our match agin the cadet corp from the Auld course.  ;D

I too appreciate the current 11th for it's subtle difficulty and required shot demands.

 But the biggest reason for status quo... standing on the current 12th hole, the change in direction. The turn for home, the wind's influence, would all be altered to an extent that would seriously affect the experience and the awareness demands required.

Those are some cursory thoughts before I rush off to have my brain bled by the dentist.

"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Tim Leahy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2008, 07:06:52 PM »
What about 8? That might be a fun drive back toward the tee.  :o
I love golf, the fightin irish, and beautiful women depending on the season and availability.

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2008, 08:57:43 PM »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2008, 09:45:37 PM »
Really like this thread, Paul, but can't contribute a damn thing (ditto for Rich's thread).

A question, which is probably really hard to answer (so feel free to skip it):

Is the fact that the land WAS used a certain way a major factor in you being able to see how it COULD HAVE been used?

In other words, does only the FACT of a routing, in the ground, fully open up the possibility of what is POTENTIAL?

If so, is this an argument both for TIME and for the WILLINGESS to CHANGE, even to the extent of welcoming change?

Yeah, "who the hell knows". When I guy has to use so many CAPITAL letters, it probably means the point of the question is no point at all....

Peter 

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2008, 09:51:47 PM »
Matt.....thank you.

Good conceptual strategies and layout. I like the alternate tees on 13. You could lengthen the hole by moving 12 tee to the left. Hackmans house is really not a consideration.

Keep up the good work.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2008, 10:26:46 PM »
Peter....I was fortunate to be connected with Pebble during what I consider its Golden Years.....prior to wall to wall cart paths or irrigated rough. Greens keepers then were afforded free reign to play whenever we weren't working....which I took full advantage of, even at night [I played some great full moon matches that in that setting were fabulous].

Golfers generally play a hole in the direction it is designed for.....while greens keepers work and view things from all directions, and I was never really comfortable with the uphill nature of 11....never warmed up to 12, and 13 was similar in its lack of strength to 15.

I have on occasion played the reverse 11 and 10 among others.

They were good.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 10:28:50 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Peter Pallotta

Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2008, 10:43:09 PM »
Paul - thanks. Those must've been some heady times.

I'd never really thought about the fact that, unlike most golfers,  greenskeepers (and architects?) walk a hole, view a hole, and work a hole from 360 degrees...its "function" being different for them than for golfers.....   

Peter



Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2008, 10:55:48 PM »
Hackmans house, the one right of the current 12th tee, would certainly be in play. Do you know how many balls end up near, or left, of the old bathroom on 12?

The real deal is the open expanse of Carmel Bay versus looking at the cove under the 8th green. Losing the open expanse' influence on 9 and 10 would be as bad an idea as switching the direction of 10-12 at Sebonack.

But I will defer to the plaid coated one.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 10:57:39 PM by Adam Clayman »
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2008, 11:06:11 PM »
Adam...stick to your guns...regardless of my cloak! ::)

Its a trade off really.....better golf versus better views.

Just try to imagine this course sans the Pacific.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Reversing holes 9, 10, 11, 12, 13 at Pebble Beach
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2008, 04:06:41 AM »

- reverse 10 would become a left turning mini cape hole with its green occupying the current #9 site. The views of #8 promontory and the ocean edge are really good for this hole and the next, and the afternoon sun will do nothing but accent this drama.
400 yds
Old   8.5
New 8.5



I don't think this works out. The hole as described would be about 325 yards given the placement of tee and previous green.

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back