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Bryan_Pennington

Highlands, NC
« on: September 09, 2008, 04:39:23 PM »
Can anyone recommend courses of interest in Highlands, NC?  Any information on Cullisaja Club?  Thanks

Sam Sikes

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 05:20:14 PM »
Bryan,

My family belongs to Cullasaja Club, and Im really not sure what to say about it.  It is a really nice club in a wonderful neighborhood with a fabulous membership, but to be perfectly honest I am not crazy about the golf course at all. 

The site offers some of the most beautiful natural features ive ever seen on a golf course, but they are not used well in my opinion.  In addition I think the maintenance meld is awful.

For instance, they do not mow the fairways low so that the older member's ball will "sit up" in the fairway.  This is a problem for two reasons.  First of all the ball does not sit up on the bent grass at that length because it lays down, making it nearly impossible to hit simple pitches into the grain.  Additionally, they insist on keeping the greens brick hard and bathtub fast, which I wouldn't have a problem with except the fairways are maintained at 1.5 inches making it nearly impossible to spin your approach.  Did i mention there is a TON of slope on the greens.  Sort of contradictory if you ask me.  also, most of the holes dont offer a run up option and if they do, the approach area is kept very soft (leaving short pitches, into the grain 1/2 the time because of the mower lines.)

I think the could solve or address many of the issues i have with the maintenance of the golf course, but there are very few good golfers at the club who even think about this type of thing.

The best options in the highlands area are Wade Hampton, Highlands CC, and Mountaintop in my opinion.

The last time I was there I played Wildcat Cliffs a George Cobb original and Bill Bergin redesign, and I must say it was one of the worst layouts I have ever seen in my life.  In fact, my friend and I quit after 8 holes because the layout was so bad.  Blind tee shots to holes with water on both sides of the landing area type of thing.  Worst than you can possibly imagine.

Hope this helps, if you have any questions, let me know.

sam



Bryan_Pennington

Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 05:29:24 PM »
Sam, thanks for the info...you would think older members would want the fairways tight for the roll.  Since you obviously know the area, I am going to be there 4-days; any must sees (golf and non-golf).

Tom_Doak

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 08:33:47 PM »
Highlands Country Club was a summer getaway for Bobby Jones.  That's pretty much a recommendation.

Sam Sikes

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 08:44:47 PM »
I would classify Highlands CC as a must see if you can swing it.  There are a couple spots where the OB/condos/town homes on the golf course pinch a little close, but the shaping is excellent.  I think the back nine is one of the more appealing ross nines I have played.  Tons of fun.

Wade Hampton is pretty good.  Many consider it fazio's best, and don't necessarily disagree, but I always find myself a bit underwhelmed after a round there.  I think the first 6 holes are excellent, the next 6 are kind of average, and the last 6 are very good.  That being said, it is one of coolest sites I have ever seen for a golf course. 

Cullasaja is not really a bad option for the area, but I mentioned the problems i have with it.  Additionally, the last two times I played I was randomly paired with two different Founders of Fortune 100 companies, which made it worthwhile.  Great club.  Mediocre golf course.

Ray Cross

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2008, 05:04:04 PM »
Bryan,
It's been many years...my roommate in college started there as a golf professional. Based on Sam's comments about condo's, it appears there have been lots of changes and I assume it is still very private. If you can get access, I think Highlands CC has almost as much Bobby Jones memorabilia as Atlanta Atheletic Club.
Lots of major money around those mountains of eastern NC.
Ray

Kenny Baer

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2008, 07:25:54 PM »
Bryan,

Highlands Cove is the only public course in the area; the back nine is absolutely fantastic; I absolutely loved it.  The front nine is pretty terrible though; 2 totally different golf courses. The back nine is worth the price of admission.

JNC Lyon

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2008, 10:25:18 AM »
Never played it but I believe Roaring Gap is supposed to be excellent as well.  It appears to be a Donald Ross and is well-profiled on this site along with Highlands.  Apparently it is pretty far away from Highlands but it looks like it might be worth the trip.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2008, 10:32:26 AM by JNC_Lyon »
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

jim_lewis

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2008, 10:34:05 AM »
Roaring Gap is an excellent Ross course, but it is a long way (probably 3 hours) from Highlands.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

JNC Lyon

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2008, 10:44:19 AM »
yeah, I realized that after I posted  8)
"That's why Oscar can't see that!" - Philip E. "Timmy" Thomas

BCrosby

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2008, 10:59:45 AM »
The course to play is Highlands CC (Ross, 1925). It could use some tree removal, but a wonderful course. Access can be an issue.

Sapphire Valley outside of Cashiers in the new go-to course. Redone a couple of years ago by Chris Spence (iirc) and a fun course. A clear improvement over the old course.

Contrasting the earlier Fazio at Wade Hampton with the newer Fazio just down the road at Mountain Top is interesting. MT is a softer, prettier course. But as golf design, the older WH is more interesting, though over-rated. Both have spectacular views of the Blue Ridge. Again, access to both can be an issue.

Trillium has a couple of good holes and a lot of holes that should never have been built. Hatalsky did a new nine up behind Cedar Creek that I saw the other day. I forget the name, but he had better land to work with than he did at Trillium and some of the holes looked quite good.

The Cove is fun and accessible. And then there is High Hampton which is short, dull and always wet but my wife adores it. So guess where I play most of my golf up there?

Bob 

   

Kenny Baer

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2008, 01:20:06 PM »
I absolutely love Highlands and love the area; there are so many great courses that are so close to each other that are all pretty much on the same road.  The problem is that they are all private and for the most part, maybe Cullasaja and Wildcat aren't as bad, you need to know a member at the very least, and have him call; or most likely actually play with a member.  I know that is the case at both Wade Hampton and Mountain Top you have to play with the member. 

I was there first of July and know a few members of both MT and WH but could not get on either.  I am going to make the trek back up there soon to play MT.

Kris Spence

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2008, 02:46:32 PM »
Bob C,  I think Bill Bergin did the renovation work at  Sapphire Valley, I recently completed a total redesign at Lake Toxaway CC down the mountain 4 miles or so toward the city of Brevard.  We reversed the direction on 9 holes and significantly re-routed 5 others to create essentially a new course. 


Bill_McBride

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #13 on: October 02, 2008, 06:51:43 PM »
Bob C,  I think Bill Bergin did the renovation work at  Sapphire Valley, I recently completed a total redesign at Lake Toxaway CC down the mountain 4 miles or so toward the city of Brevard.  We reversed the direction on 9 holes and significantly re-routed 5 others to create essentially a new course. 



Kris, hate to thread jack here but I was interested in your reversing 9 holes at Lake Toxaway.  That's what Robert Trent Jones did at Eugene (Oregon) CC many years ago and it worked well.  What was the rationale behind this reversal (if you don't mind my asking)?

John_Cullum

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #14 on: October 02, 2008, 09:53:19 PM »
Kris

Please expand on that. I played at Lake Tox in the summers when I was a teenager. Which 9 did you reverse, and what else?
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Adam_Messix

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2008, 10:50:29 AM »
I cannot comment on the nine that just reopened at Lake Toxaway, but the nine the Kris Spence reversed (with the exception of the 13th and 14th holes I think) is excellent and a dramatic improvement over what was there.  I was a little worried when it was first discussed about how the new 10th hole was going to play given that it is majorly uphill, but it works well and the reveresed 1st (now the 18th) is an excellent risk/reward par 5.  The greens are interesting and every hole was very playable. 

Nathan Cashwell

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #16 on: October 06, 2008, 05:44:52 PM »
I'm not going to speak for Kris, but we did the front 9 (what is now the back 9) two years ago and finished the new front 9 (old back nine) in June of this year and they opened in July.  Adam is correct we reversed all of the holes except 13 and 14 (across the street) on the new back nine, and we reversed what is now the 1st and 9th holes directly behind the clubhouse.  We removed the pond at the bottom of the hill of the old finishing hole and reinstated the creeks that separate the new 1st and 9th holes.  We also split the 600+ yard par 5 (old 13) into a medium length par 4 (new #4) and a medium length par 3 (new #5) with the green across the creek.  They are calling it the "Amen Corner of the Mountains".  I was up there last week and it is in really good condition considering the large amount of play it has had since opening in July, and the immense amount of rain it received from the tropical storms that passed through.  Both nines are very good and a great change from the old golf course.  It used to be incredibly tight and cramped, and ironically did not have a singe view of the lake that it gets it's name from.  We opened up the corridors allowing people of all skill levels to play the golf course using the incredible natural terrain or putting into the air and playing the mountain breezes to work the ball.  We also opened up views of Lake Toxaway from the golf course.  Everyone is thrilled and proud of their golf course and it is getting outstanding reviews.  If you have a chance to play it you should (especially if you ever played the old course), you will definitely enjoy it.  The service of the employees and treatment of guests up there is second to none, and make the experience that much more enjoyable.  Plus with the views of the mountain and the changing leaves now is the best time to play it.

John_Cullum

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #17 on: October 06, 2008, 07:02:09 PM »
I regret the 636 yard par 5 is NLE. It was always very daunting just knowing that it was there, even though it played shorter. Holes of that length were unheard of back in the 60's and 70's
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Kris Spence

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Re: Highlands, NC
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2008, 10:37:08 AM »
John, sorry it took so long to post this, Ive been wrapping up work on several master plans.  Thanks for your interest in the Toxaway project, you can see some new photos of the completed front nine work on my photo gallery at www.pbase.com/kspdesign  Click on each photo to enlarge.

We reversed 9 holes including old holes 1-4 , 7-9 10 & 18. The nines were switched to allow the opening hole to play away from the clubhouse /golf shop area and start on a 4 par with 10 being an uphill 3 par.  The primary reasoning behind the reroute was to utilize the natural contours more effectively in the strategy of the course.  Most of the old ridge lines and slopes in the landing areas were 550 to 600 feet from the tees, obsolete in terms of distance if we wanted to use them as landing areas etc.  We could have moved the dirt but it made more sense economically to turn it around, not only does it fit better the views are greatly enhanced and many of the homeowners got greatly improved lot views.

The first nine we reworked (new 10-18) were extremely narrow, I would say 5000 plus trees were removed to open the corridors.  I wanted to create a course that was inviting and somewhat comfortable off the tee with 45- 55 yard landing areas.  The fairway bunkering is somewhat conservative in number relying more on the natural hills and valleys to dictate strategy. 

I would describe the greens as being on the subtle side for my work, they flow with the natural surrounds articulating  along the edges with spines and rolls breaking up the internal sections.  The Toxaway members and guest come to the area during the summer to get away and relax, I kept this in mind when designing the course, they certainly don’t go up there for a stern mental or physical workout.  The course requires them to think about placement off the tee and gives them multiple options on every shot.  So far the reviews are very positive. 

Summary of changes using new hole numbers

#1 Plays backward old 18 corridor, dogleg right to platuea green
Removed pond between 1 and 9, created meandering creek bed
#2 Plays same direction as old #11, green moved forward 30 yards
#3 Tee move back to old #11 green site, hill lowered 6 feet in landing
#3 Green in same location redesigned
#4 Old #13 600+ par 5 converted into par 4 and par 3
#4 New 435 par 4 designed on natural grade, very little earth moved
#5 Green left of old 13 green where 14 tees existed, short bail out frwy rt
#6 Straight away par 4 from short of 14 green site, heavily bunkered on right green 20 yards short of old 15 green
#7 Lengthened par 3 with tees near old 15 green site
#8 Move tees back 15 yards, cross bunker on right green in same area
#9 Plays backward on old #10, green below and left of clubhouse near lake
#10 Plays directly up hill and backward of old #9, lowered green site 12'
#11 Tees old #9 tee site, 515 ish par 5 dogleg right around hill green down in valley near old 8 tees
#12 Tees on side of hill hitting down to heavily sloping fairway from left to right.  Plays backward down old #7, the old fairway witht he large bulge in the center.  Green site at old tee site
#13 Plays same as old hole, tees shifted right, lengthened 15 yards with a newly designed green into rock outcroppings.
#14 Tees move back 30 yards, trees removed on left providing view of drivable green from tee. Around 280 yards
#15 Plays backward of old #4, very natural hole.  Tees move up to street with green in toe of slope below old 4 tees.
#16 Beautiful par 3 from old #4 tees to old #3 landing area 185 ish
#17 Plays backward across old #3 tee site to unused area between old #2 green and 3 tee.  Tee shot is semi blind around the corner of a large hill, ideal line along creek on right.  Green across creek from old drop shot #2 green site.  Major environmental headaches at green site, we were forced to pipe creek along left side of green, I wanted it left open.  Now the state wants to change their mind also.
#18  Plays from old #2 tees backward down old #1.  Provides dramatic view down to lake with green at old #1 tees.  The owner wanted me to leave the pond in front of green, my original design plan had a creek 30 yards further from green with a small approach fairway, I feel the current hole is a bit forceful on the second shot, I would rather the player have the option of laying up over or short of the creek instead the all or nothing now.