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Ian Andrew

A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« on: October 19, 2008, 10:06:10 PM »
This is in response to the courses we don’t know thread – Mark and Sean’s request in specific.

Lookout Point Country Club, Fonthill, Ontario, Canada

It seems that Travis got all his Buffalo area work through a single connection – I believe that was Harry Yates financier and owner of The Lafayette Hotel – but I could have the wrong name. I’m lead to believe that the 5 commissions including Cherry Hill (which is a Buffalo based membership) and Lookout Point were both arranged by Yates too.

Aerial from 2006 with routing (old is in red)


The commission was given to Travis in 1919 where he produced the plan that I have posted below. The property falls immediately 100 feet from the escarpment and 200 feet from one end to the other. There is no flat land except up on top of the escarpment where the 9th hole is located and even that has a large ravine between the first and second shots.

The course was begun right away but18 holes were not in play until 1921, with the course officially opened till 1922.  I have no notes to the fact, but I seem to remember the club building 9 holes at a time – but this is from distant memory.

Travis’s Plan for Lookout Point


The golf course begins and ends on the top of the Niagara Escarpment where the clubhouse is sighted. The opener to both nines drops over 120 feet down to the fairway. The holes are separated by mounds that range from 6 to 10 feet high and were covered with fescue. The club has cut them some years and grown them out on other years. They always look best long and about half the trees have been removed since the 1998 photo one below this one. This image shows the mounds really well before the trees were planted.

Looking back up the 1st Hole


The following picture gives you a good idea about what the bunkering looks like on the course. There is a three mound pattern to many of the fairway bunkers. One of the fascinating facts of the bunkers was when they were redone 10 years ago was we found clay liners built into the bottom of the bunkers that were still functional after nearly 80 years.

The Current 1st Hole


The greens are all original from the 1st through to the 6th – a great crease green - and then the next three are all rebuilds. The 3rd is one of the most memorable since the par five is under 500 yards but the green is very long and narrow and measure 2800 sq.ft. The joy of the hole is the fact that you can/should play 20 yards short and bounce it on. The problems begin when you miss.  You are either 5 or 10 feet below the green if right or left – with about a 20 foot wide crown to tray and leave the ball on – or worse 20 feet below if your long with no room to miss right or left.

The 2800 sq.ft green at #3


Much of the course was wide open at the outset and Travis added mounds throughout to separate holes. They still exist and are still maintained long – the trees are coming – but the club is reluctant to pull too many down since the holes are often tight through stretches like this one.

The mounds between holes at the 4th


My favourite hole is the 5th – it’s 138 yards from the back tee and into another sub-3000 sq.ft green. The play is short and let the ball bounce on since the green is steep from back to front, long is so very dead with a 10 foot drop behing and both bunkers left and right are over 6 feet deep. Was that front depression a bunker – we found no evidence to that fact including probing so we left it alone. But probably was…

The short and tough 5th


The course plays back and forth running perpendicular to the fall of the land with each hole requiring some forethought to deal with the slopes. The greens fall with the slopes but are devilish with the interior contours on all of them.

1935 General Brock Open (old 8th hole)


In 1935 the best golfers in the world descended on Lookout Point and played the general Brock Open including Byron Nelson. The course was stretched to 6900 yards and played to a par of 74. A score of 3 under won the tournament.

Looking across 2 and up the original 8th


This above image once again shows the mounds, the 2nd green and the old 8th hole – or at least part of it anyway. The current 6th and 17th were originally one long 600 yard par five. The 8th shown above and below was originally a dogleg right. You play the first half as the current 18th and you can find the original green still intact in the trees on the right.

The original 9th green


The 9th played across the valley and to the current chipping green.
It was removed to become a range when the changes were made to these holes. While the range is now gone and across the road – the holes won’t change anytime soon


The current 10th hole
 

The back nine once again started at the top of the escarpment – but this time the second shot was over a ravine to a small green set 10 feet above the fairway on a plateau. The bunker behind is 15 feet deep and that was put there to save you from an even worse fate beyond. The 10th green was expanded in the past to it’s current size for more pin but retains the feel of the rest of the greens.

The 11th is an original but the 12th is a rebuild. The 13th and 14th both feature original greens and back to back stunning long par fours that rival any of the best holes in golf. The long uphill 14th seems to always be the backbreaker for most good rounds at 450 yards straight up the hill all the way to a roller coaster green.

The approach to the uphill 14th
 

The quirky mound on the 14th are in the middle of the fairway and indicate where to carry if you are playing a running shot into a wide open front to the green. The mounds in the 15th below are 100 yards off the tee and indicate the ideal line on this short 340 yard par four. Once again no signs of sand – but they bear a great resemblance to the “whin” detail from many of his drawings – without conclusive proof of sand they were left as grass.

The central mounds on the 15th
 

The 15th is original; the 16th is an entirely new hole. The fairway was part of the old hole, the green added during the changes and the bunkering was done in 1998. The 17th has the original green and the 18th is all new from the 100 yard mark in. One interesting note is the bunkers on the right, which are quite good, are not originals.

The course has always suffered from the revised finish which is 340, 330, 390, 330. The holes are fine but most can’t get by the short stretch of holes.

There are a few facts that are off the top of my head - be warned – but most of it should be pretty accurate. One small note - flashed up bunkers were required by the club - if you look closely you will see they were grass faced in old photos.

Ask whatever questions you can think of and I’ll do my best to answer each night after I get home.


On a personal note – this was the first restorative effort I was ever involved with. It’s not a complete restoration, but some of it was. I interested a damned good Travis course and was asked to produce a Master Plan. I asked – and surprisingly got a 6 month delay in the process so that I could go learn about Travis (my idea). I was deftly afraid of screwing the place up. The club historian and future head of the Travis Society (Ed Homsey) became fast friends and went on tour.

The result was a surprisingly large amount of Travis work which continues to come my way (I’m not sure why). So needless to say not only is this one of my own personal Canadian top 10’s for the amount of ground game it requires, but the course is very dear to me on a different level too.


I hope you enjoyed a look into a course you would likely never have heard of.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 10:09:31 PM by Ian Andrew »

Carl Nichols

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2008, 10:48:54 PM »
Ian:
This is terrific -- although I had heard of the course, I didn't know anything about it before this profile.  Thanks for all of the information and pics.

Mike_Cirba

Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2008, 11:14:35 PM »
Ian,

Lookout Point has suddenly entered my Top 10 of courses I want to see.

In fact, of any architect's work anywhere, I want to do a tour of upper NY State and see Troy, Yahundasis, Lookout Point, & Onondaga.

So many cool course, so little leisure time.   :-[

Tyler Kearns

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 11:31:20 PM »
Ian,

Does the original 9th green still exist as Travis designed it? Judging from the aerial, it is currently in use as a practice green.

TK

Ian Andrew

Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 08:38:21 AM »
Yes - the 9th is all there as the chipping green.

The original range is between 7 and 15 - the new one is across the road.


John Foley

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 08:51:46 AM »
Ian - Thanks - Lookout is one of the courses that fit this bill. We'll recieved by many, but very little info out there.

Integrity in the moment of choice

Doug Wright

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2008, 10:20:22 AM »
Ian,

Thank you for this profile of Lookout Point. I played the course, which my parents called "Fonthill," 40 years ago as a teenager. The opening tee shot was truly memorable; I also recall the greens being small and difficult. Last but not least it was a tough walk up the escarpment!

I don't recall the mounds. Were there other architects who used this feature as Travis did?

Looking at the prior routing, I suspect the old 7th and 8th holes were quite challenging.
Twitter: @Deneuchre

Thomas MacWood

Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2008, 10:49:25 AM »
Ian
Great profile. What is the story with the drawing...its unlike any of the other Travis plans I've seen?

Ian Andrew

Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 12:48:38 PM »
Tom,

The plan is done by an engineer.

Not sure if it was copied from his drawings or not - but that's all they have. There are more old photos at the RCGA on a panel including the old 8th green -  from the General Brock Open. I didn't have a camera with me when this was discovered a few years back.

Sean_A

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2008, 06:36:56 PM »
Tom,

The plan is done by an engineer.

Not sure if it was copied from his drawings or not - but that's all they have. There are more old photos at the RCGA on a panel including the old 8th green -  from the General Brock Open. I didn't have a camera with me when this was discovered a few years back.

Ian

Thanks for doing this.  Do you have anymore pix of how the course looks today?

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jeremy Rivando

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2008, 07:06:43 PM »
Here are some additional photos of a recent trip I took to Lookout Point. 

The members seem to like the idea that few people know about their hidden gem, this is a course worthy of more discussion and more recognition.

The bunker mounding and separation mounding is sharp, the tops are covered with fescue in many areas including the backsides of some of the bunkering and it adds character while serving as a visual stimulant.

The golf course demands an array of shots as the golfer will face any number of awkward lies.  As Ian pointed out there are no flat lies to be found and that adds to much of the pleasure of playing Lookout. 

The property is dramatic and severe at times, it's a strenuous walk (and it should be walked) and it is memorable, certainly worth a visit if you ever have the chance.

A closer look at the tiny green on the Par 5 3rd hole.  The only good miss here is just short of the green, the green falls quickly on all sides.



A look at the crease green, the Par 4 6th hole.  A unique feature Travis has used on at least a few occasions.



From the right side of #6



A beautiful view back up the Par 4 10th hole, this is a new clubhouse.



Looking down the 18th from clubhouse veranda.






« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:07:21 PM by Jeremy Rivando »

mark chalfant

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2008, 08:12:59 PM »
Ian,
Thanks  very much for the great profile,  Travis has a lot of hidden gems !!



p.s.   

I played  Park CC of Buffalo this June,  it was a very fine master plan. Congrats  ...that long ninth  is a splendid par five

TX Golf

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2008, 08:20:56 PM »
Wow... a truly great looking golf course!!!

Jeremy,

It looks like that 6th green is a Biarrittz. Is this the case? What type of shot is required into that green?

Jeremy Rivando

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2008, 09:32:49 PM »
I guess it is a subtle version of a Biarritz without the raised front section of the green.

The hole is just under 400 yards and a good portion of the difficulty lies in the positioning of the tee shot.  Players need to decide where to try and place their drive as a large swale runs across the hole at the 150yd marker leaving the player with a blind shot into the green.  Laying back will leave you a good view and the front portion of the green is level with the fairway so a player can land a ball short and run it in. 
Trying to drive past the swale will take some courage and strength but the player will have only a wedge to try and fly the ball into the correct plateau.
Missing the green left or right will leave a challenging chip unless you are perfectly pin high.  Most chips will have to navigate the swale and it can be quite difficult to judge properly.

A view from the fairway, the bunker on the right is well short of the green and there is a bunker guarding the left side of the putting surface.


Paul Stephenson

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2008, 02:16:11 PM »
I last played this course in 1992 in a university golf tournament.  I'm surprised at how many holes I still remember.  Ian's comments about the green's inner countours in relation to the general lay of the land brought back some not so fond memories.  I found those greens very hard to read and many times found my putts breaking "up the hill."  I don't remember there being any fescue when I played, it looks much better now.

There was heavy fog on second day of the tournament at the top of the escarpment, and you could not see the first fairway from the tee.  Once you reached the first fairway the fog was such that you could easily play.  What a difference 120 feet makes.

Instead of delaying play, coaches were sent down on both sides of the first hole to act as spotters.  I'm not sure if it's still the case, but in 1992 I learned the hard way that the frist tees points down the tenth fairway.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 21, 2008, 02:23:12 PM by Paul Stephenson »

Jay Flemma

Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #15 on: October 21, 2008, 02:24:12 PM »
look at the shaping...and at osme of those mounds...very Garden City-esque, at times, form the pix, that is.

Ronald Montesano

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #16 on: October 21, 2008, 11:01:04 PM »
For those who cannot tell, that 18th hole is so benign from tee to green, until you're forced to putt...and putt...and putt.  The third green, the fingernail putting surface on an extremely brief par five, can easily be missed by a full wedge in.  It's best played from front to back, and not in the air to the flagstick.  Coming so early in the round, it defines your score before you even know that you are keeping one!

Ian, Ed Homsey is a great chap.  For those who might want to learn a bit more or connect with the Walter J. Travis society, visit http://buff-golf.com/travis.htm to see their site.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Evan_Smith

Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2008, 10:56:00 PM »
I was lucky enough to join Lookout Point this spring when I moved to the Niagara Region.  I joined the course sight unseen (other than photos) because of the comments Ian has made about the course.  I know what courses he loves and if this is in his top 10 in Canada, then I'd be crazy not to join.  The other great thing about Lookout is that it has to be one of the world's best values at a $3000 initiation fee and only about 400 members so it's always easy to play and a slow round at the course is 4 hours!!!

I was fortunate enough to grow up in Kingston, Ontario playing Stanley Thompson's Cataraqui and I think I may like Lookout Point even more.  Even though the finishing holes are short, they are by no means easy and every hole on the property is great.  You have to be able to hit straight, draw and fade tee shots.  There are uphill and downhill tee shots and approaches, as well as uneven lies galore.  The fairways remind me of a links course in that regard.  Which brings me to one of my favourite things about Lookout.  The course is a sandy base which allows it to play firm and lets the golfer choose between the ground and air game, and it drains as well as any course I've ever played.  It was so wet here this summer, but you wouldn't know it walking the course.

I'll try to post a few photos in the next days if I can find them.  If anyone is ever going to be in the area, let me know and I'd love to get you out for a round.  It truly is one of the all time great gems that a lot of people don't know about.

I do have a question for you Ian.  How long was the old 9th hole and where was the tee?  Based on the current topography I've never been able to picture where the hole would play and tee shots would finish.  If the answer is in your original post's photos, I can't see them as they wouldn't show up on my computer for some reason.

Ian Andrew

Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #18 on: November 13, 2008, 05:09:32 PM »
From Ed Homsey of the Travis Society - an email that I think you would enjoy....

Wanted to comment on Travis's central connection in the Buffalo area.  From all I've been able to determine, it was a family connection.  Travis's wife's sister married a Buffalo gentleman by the name of Albert J. Wright, and they settled in Buffalo.  Consequently, Travis and his wife made several visits to Buffalo.  His brother-in-law, Mr. Wright was a prominent founding member of CC of Buffalo and was instrumental in securing Travis's services to renovate the CC of Buffalo course (their original course located at Main and Bailey--now the Grover Cleveland Muni) in order to bring it up to championship form that would enable them to host a national championship.  Travis did his work there in 1910-11, and the club hosted the U.S. Open in 1912. 
 
Travis's next work in the Buffalo area came in 1916 when the Park Club decided to build a "summer" course in Orchard Park.  Actually, Park Club was facing a decision about their Delaware course (something about a lease running out), and they had looked at building a course in Orchard Park much earlier.  Turns out that Harry Yates, the Orchard Park hotelier that you mentioned, offered to sell Park Club some acreage he owned in OP for a minimal sum, and to give Park Club options on some other adjacent land.  Here's where the family connection comes in again.  Travis's nephew, Parke Wright, was a top golfer in the Buffalo area and was a prominent member of Park Club.  It is my belief---supported by Albert J. Wright III, current historian of CC of Buffalo, and HOnorary Member of the Travis Society--that Travis got the commission to design the Orchard Park course as a result of his nephew's influence and, of course, the success of his earlier work for CC of Buffalo. 
 
Two other family connections:  Another Wright family member, and nephew of Travis, was a charter member of Cherry Hill Club; and, lastly, a best friend of Travis's brother-in-law, Albert J. Wright, was Ernest Woodward, President of Jello, in Le Roy, Stafford CC's first president, and the person who brought Travis to Stafford.  Woodward's parents were Buffalo residents and Woodward often hosted a Stafford Board of Governor's meeting at his mother's Buffalo home.  Descendants of Albert J. Wright and Ernest Woodward have continued their family's friendship to this day.
 
I have not been able to trace the link to LPCC or to Pennhills Club. 

We have correspondence between Travis and a gentleman by name of Harry Weed, the Park Club President, in which arrangements were made for Travis to "inspect" property that Park Club was considering for a golf course.  Travis visited the course and sent a letter detailing his impressions of the land and recommendations for acquisition of additional land.
 
Don't know if you've ever visited and/or played the Grover Cleveland Muni course, but if not, it's worth the time.  It has been altered considerably, but there are still some of the most primitive landforms I've ever seen on a golf course.  I have a feeling that Bendelow must have been there before Travis!


Robert Thompson

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2008, 09:12:10 AM »
Fascinating. Always wondered why Travis worked in the Niagara region of Ontario. Any idea why he was in Quebec?
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2008, 09:19:52 AM »
It's a fascinating piece of history, too, that the US Open was once played at what is now Grover Cleveland-Muni, in Buffalo. Cool.

Rob: Where did Travis work in Quebec?
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Robert Thompson

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2008, 06:48:54 PM »
Grand Mere Golf Club -- which I believe is the course affiliated with our former Prime Minister. Ian doesn't know much about it -- but it is listed as a Travis on his site. Don't know what Travis was doing in Quebec...
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

Ed Homsey

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #22 on: November 18, 2008, 01:32:46 PM »
Re:  the question of what brought Travis to Gran Mere in Shawinigan, Quebec.

The Travis Society has no information that answers that question.  We know of no other Travis work in Quebec. 

In our communication with Gran Mere, we've learned that the course was created in 1910 for the employees of the Laurentide Paper Company.  Frederik de Peyster Townsend created the first 3 holes and the remainder of the course was completed by Travis (at the time, it was called Laurentide Country Club).  Later, it was joined with an adjacent 9-hole course.  Prime Minister Jean Chretien was a share-holder at one time.

In his 1924 Golf Illustrated ad, Travis lists Grand Mere Golf Club as a "remodel".

In 2005, we received an email from a gentleman who'd just returned from playing Grand Mere.  He described the course as a "special experience"; one that made him "think from tee to green", with "undulating greens" and "penal fairway bunkers".

That's the extent of our knowledge about Club De Grand-Mere.  It's on my list of Travis courses to play someday.

Ed

Ronald Montesano

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2008, 06:09:26 PM »
I grew up sneaking under the fence by the second green at CCB 2/Grover Cleveland Muni.  My favorite fact about the 1912 Open is who played a practice round but was not allowed to compete in the tournament proper:  Walter Hagen.  Hagen traveled to Buffalo from Rochester with his head pro from CCR but was not allowed to compete by the pro, who judged Hagen not yet ready.  How history might have changed had Hagen, with no great Brits in the field, won that 1912 Open at John McDermott's expense!
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Ronald Montesano

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Re: A Profile of Lookout Point Country Club (Travis)
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2010, 12:24:53 PM »
With the publication of David Barrett's new book on Hogan, Miracle at Merion, I finally dug out the answer to a question that has always intrigued me.  Hogan returned to the tour in 1937 at the General Brock Open, always cited as played at Niagara Falls.  Well, Fonthill must be close enough to be included within the cataract city.  It's nice to know that a bunch of General Brock (named for an NF, Canada, hotel) opens were played at Lookout and that Hogan and his gypsy brethren walked the fairways of that fine course.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

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