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Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2008, 06:30:11 AM »
For a variety of reasons I had originally decided not to comment on this thread. The reason being that I respect both the views, and rights to them, that some have in how they interpret what they read and research.

As some may know, I am of the very strong opinion that "Far and Sure" was NOT Tilly. There is a variety of reasons for this, but among them is one that I believe to be most important in comparing writings by the two. They give contradictory accounts of how Crump discovered the land upon which he would build Pine Valley.

Tilly wrote of the day they were returning from a round of golf at Atlantic City and how Crump looked out the window and saw the land as they passed it by and immediately realized that he had to build a golf course there. He wrote it, not as one who was told the story, but as an actual eyewitness of the event.

"Far and Sure" would recount this same discovery and tell of it as one who was also there with him at that moment and tells how it was during a day of horseback riding and hunting when he and friends quite unexpectedly came upon the land and he decided that it would be perfect for a golf course.

As one who wrote about the design and construction of Pine Valley continuously throughout his life, as a man who would end up contributing to the final design, as a bit of an obsessed admirerof it whose lifelong dream was to create his own "Pine Valley" style of golf course which would rival it, he most definitely would NOT have written contradictory accounts of the finding of the land by Crump, especially under a pseudonym whose identity was understood and of fairly common-knowledge of identity back in the day.

That the accounts are similar are not surprising. We are talking about commentary on singular and specific locations including the uses of terminology quite common to both time and place.

For example, in that day all writers wrote of a golf courses "bogey" rather than it's "par." How many who would read that today in the era when "par" is the expected and target score for both pro's & amateurs alike can even grasp what was meant by it?

In order to draw a conclusion as to who an unnamed author may have beenwhen comparing writings nearly a century later, it is not the similarities in style that should provide the direction, but rather whether there are any clear-cut and definitive contradictions of major and important points and subjects.

Pine Valley, especially for Tilly, was seminal to his writing and some of his designs and would certainly show in this area. It is for this discrepency (and some others) that I changed my view on this a while back as, when my good chemistry professor first broached the subject to me, I felt that there was merit and agreed with it.

Now, despite what some may think, I do not consider myself the be-all and end-all of Tilly info. I greatly respect that this is my OPINION and nothing more. I just want to remind the professor to once again consider Linus and the magic triple-helix!  ;D

One thing that most don't understand, know or appreciate about Tilly's writings is just how much information was gathered for him and even partially written for him by another person.

Tom Paul mentioned that, "In my mind, there's just no one else quite as valuable as Tillie and his constant writing in and around this area during that time..."

Tom Macwood mentions a possible sea voyage by "Far and Sure" and expressed his belief over whether Tilly was travelling at this time.

Tilly was travelling, infact I have now confirmed and built a very accurate early timeline of these travels and am able to place him from the northeast to Florida, out to Texas and Oklahoma and even into California by 1915.

How then was he able to garner the information for his articles on Philadelphia area golf, write them and get them published even weekly at times while doing this?

The answer is that helper I mentioned above.. His father, B.C. Tillinghast. B.C. was almost as obsessive about golf as tilly was and was a pretty decent player. For example, he won the Absecom Dup at Atlantic City in 1912. B.C. wrote almost every single poem used in his "Hazard" columns and was his on-site observor for many things locally while travelling. He would write this information out for his son and Tilly would incorporate much of it, many times verbatim, into his articles.

I hope this soverly long post gives at least a bit to think about on this question. Right or wrong, whoever "Far and Sure" actually was (by the way there was an English golf writer who also went by that Nom-de-plume in the 1895-1910 era and published in British golf journals of the day), much of his writings provide key understanding of how some of the great designs came into being and how the game was appreciated back in the day.

 

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2008, 06:39:45 AM »
The AG article starts, "A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner, and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail. For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut in half with a knife had settled on us. At last it lifted and we cound that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St.John for repairs."

A while back I figured this was the clue to Far & Sure's identity. I tracked down the name of the ship and the date of incedent, through the ship's records was able to figure out who wrote it. His name escapes me right now but I do remember it wasn't Tilly or Travis.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 07:23:09 AM by Tom MacWood »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2008, 07:10:51 AM »
Tom Mac,

Thanks for the point on the sea voyage. I had meant to include that in my diatribe as I also rememberred your finding that and posting it in one of the earlier discussions. If memory serves me correctly Travis wasn't entirely eliminated but "Far and Sure" was not identified.


Joe Bausch

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Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2008, 07:16:18 AM »
My instinct tells me two different people wrote those articles.  The writing styles seem to me too different for one writer. 

Perhaps.  But if they were two different writers, then Far and Sure, if he wrote an article like that for a class at my university, he might find himself with an academic integrity violation.  :)
@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Thomas MacWood

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2008, 07:55:36 AM »
Phil
You may be thinking of someone else, I wasn't participating on GCA when I discovered the identity of F&S.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2008, 09:33:46 AM »
Mr. MacWood wrote:

“The AG article starts, "A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner, and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail. For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut in half with a knife had settled on us. At last it lifted and we cound that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St.John for repairs.

A while back I figured this was the clue to Far & Sure's identity. I tracked down the name of the ship and the date of incedent, through the ship's records was able to figure out who wrote it. His name escapes me right now but I do remember it wasn't Tilly or Travis.

Phil
You may be thinking of someone else, I wasn't participating on GCA when I discovered the identity of F&S.”



Mr. MacWood:

Isn’t that interesting? I seem to remember running across a report somewhere (was it in a newspaper?) of a passenger ship around that time that was crippled for a few days that sort of fit into this same timing. The ship was named.

What I’m wondering, though, is how you tracked down the name of that ship and what I’m really wondering is how you tracked down the identity of the AG reporter who was sailing on that ship who wrote for AG under the pen name “Far and Sure”. I’m particularly interested in how you tracked down his identity through the ship’s records. Was his actual identity listed on one of those reliable ship passenger manifests next to parentheses that indicated that he was “Far and Sure” who wrote for AG magazine or something?  ;)

You seem to be one helluva clever investigator but nevertheless I'm just wondering how you do it. Apparently I'm just not giving you the investigative credit you must be due. Is there any chance you could tell us how you managed to discover all this?

But don’t you think it seems a bit convenient that you say now that you can’t remember who he was? Have you got a memory left, Mr. MacWood, or is this just another excuse for failing to produce information which you probably never had in the first place? Please prove my suspicions wrong!  ???




« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 09:36:46 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2008, 09:50:03 AM »
Does anyone have the American Cricketer article by Tillinghast on Merion?

In a thread a few months back discussing the same issue I wrote the following;



Phil...can you tell me the date of the "American Cricketer" article where TIllinghast reviews Merion? 

Here is what I have about it from Jim Finegan's book;

"Tillinghast reviewed the new course at length in the American Cricketer and was generally appreciative of its merits; 

(Tillinghast wrote - clarification mine)

"...16th, 17th, 12th, and 3rd are the best holes.   The old quarry, which is traversed by the last three holes is a wonderfully effective natural hazard an makes these holes a fine finish...The yawning quarry makes the 17th look fearsome enough but the terror is more imaginary than real.  The 16th is a corker..It is a real gem...If your drive is a good one, before you stretches the old quarry, its cliff-like sides frowning forbiddingly.  Just beyond, and sparkling like an emerald, is the green, calling for a shot that is brave and true.  It seems almost like a coy but flirtatious maiden with mocking eyes flashing at you from over her fan, and as you measure the distance between, you are fired with the ambition to show off a bit..."

"No one will ever play Merion without taking away the member of No. 16..." (and then goes on to describe the 3rd, 7th, and 13th - my words)

Then Finegan writes;

"Summing up, Tillinghast pointed out that comparatively few bunkers were yet in place, then concluded on a somewhat muted note:  "I believe that Merion will have a real championship course, and Philadelphia has been crying out for one for many years.  The construction committee, headed by Hugh I. Wilson, has been thorough in its methods and deserves the congratulations of all golfers.""


The next day I wrote;


Actually, as I go back to the American Golfer article by "Far and Sure" and compare it against the American Cricketer article by Tillinghast, it's interesting how they both used very fanciful, almost mythologic language to describe it;


"The old quarry, which is traversed by the last three holes is a wonderfully effective natural hazard an makes these holes a fine finish...The yawning quarry makes the 17th look fearsome enough but the terror is more imaginary than real.  The 16th is a corker..It is a real gem...If your drive is a good one, before you stretches the old quarry, its cliff-like sides frowning forbiddingly.  Just beyond, and sparkling like an emerald, is the green, calling for a shot that is brave and true.  It seems almost like a coy but flirtatious maiden with mocking eyes flashing at you from over her fan, and as you measure the distance between, you are fired with the ambition to show off a bit..." - AW Tillinghast in American Cricketer

"A number of years ago your correspondent (is it strange that Travis would have thought of himself as a "Correspondent" to American golfer when it was his mag?) was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail.  For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut with a knife had settled on us.  At last it lifted and we found that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St. Johns for repairs.  I shall never forget that harbor.   Rocks, gray and forbidding, on each side came down to the beating surf, but between them in the distance nestled the little port in the green lap of the Newfoundland hills.  When for the first time I saw the sixteenth green on the new Merion course, a brilliant patch of color just beyond the opening in the dark walls of the old quarry hole, like a flash my thoughts flew back over twenty years and once again I was standing by the rail, joyfully regarding the welcome haven of St. Johns." - "Far and Sure" - American Golfer

 

Hey Tom MacWood,

Any shipping manifests with the name Tillinghast arriving around 1890-1895, with the most precise date being around 1892 when Tilly was 18 years old?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2008, 05:05:07 PM by MikeCirba »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #32 on: October 22, 2008, 09:58:11 AM »
By the way, I don't have Finegan's book in front of me, but back a few months ago I was trying to make a different point and didn't include his descriptions of the 3rd, 7th, and 13th holes that he quoted from Tillinghast's account in American Cricketer.

Given this exercise, if someone has the book handy, it might be interesting to see how closely his description matches both what he wrote for the newspaper as well as Far and Sure's account.

There only seems two possibilities here given the incredible similarities that are way too close for happenstance and coincidence.

Either Far and Sure who wrote the Merion article for American Golfer was Tillinghast, or he copied Tillinghast's account nearly verbatim.

Given that Tillinghast wrote for the same magazine, I'm not sure why someone would have to cheat to get an article from him about the most important Philadelphia golf course ever built at the time.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2008, 10:00:34 AM »
Mike Cirba:

This "Far and Sure" wrote that for American Cricketer over twenty years later?

Hmmm!

Whoever he was it sounds like he wrote nearly as long as Tillinghast did.

As Sundance said to Butch:

"WHO ARE THOSE GUYS?"

Maybe it REALLY WAS Lord Baltimore after all. ;)

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2008, 10:14:15 AM »
My instinct tells me two different people wrote those articles.  The writing styles seem to me too different for one writer. 

Perhaps.  But if they were two different writers, then Far and Sure, if he wrote an article like that for a class at my university, he might find himself with an academic integrity violation.  :)

Joe, Doesn't Far AND Sure imply two writers?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2008, 10:19:43 AM »
Adam,

No, he wrote in the first person singular.   It was just a catchy pen-name.

Tom Paul,

I'm not sure what I wrote about 20 years later?   "Far and Sure" in his 1912 Merion article talked about his ship breaking down around Newfoundland 20 years prior, around 1892.   


Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2008, 10:27:31 AM »
I seriously doubt that "Far and Sure" was a plagiarist, using Tillinghast's article from the Philadelphia newspaper.

I say this for several reasons but first and foremost the "Far and Sure" article, with more page space to work with, uses it to go to great lengths to VISUALLY describe the golf course in the first person, from his nearly mythical description of the 16th to his comments on the turf, to his descriptions like "painstaking development", etc.

I doubt that someone using the news article as their sole source would have taken such creative liberties, which oh, by the way, also bear close relation in fancifiul language to what Tillinghast wrote for American Cricketer.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #37 on: October 22, 2008, 10:35:59 AM »
"Tom Paul,
I'm not sure what I wrote about 20 years later?   "Far and Sure" in his 1912 Merion article talked about his ship breaking down around Newfoundland 20 years prior, around 1892."


MikeC:

Oh, I see. I had no idea that crippled ship incident was that early. I was sort of thinking twenty years the other way. BTW, maybe I'm not understanding you but you didn't write about something twenty years later, Far and Sure mentioned in that American Cricketer article the crippled ship incident was over twenty years previous.

But I'm still wondering how Mr. MacWood managed to identify the real name of "Far and Sure" off the records of that crippled ship. What am I missing here in that vein? Can you help explain that?  ;)   

I probably have a bit of a different perspective and interest in this pen name thing and the identities of those writers than the rest of you might. I'll try to explain what I mean by that later.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 10:41:14 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #38 on: October 22, 2008, 10:45:07 AM »
On August 18th, 1890, Albert W. Tillinghast arrived in NYC with his parents from Liverpool on the ship Aurania.

No word yet if that ship had trouble around Newfoundland.

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #39 on: October 22, 2008, 10:56:35 AM »
MikeC:

Does the Aurania's passenger manifest happen to list a "Far and Sure" who wrote for AG too?  ;)

Please don't let the fact that AG may not have existed at that time throw you.

Here's an angle. What's the possibility that Tillie had a serious split personality as a kid or that he had a Teddy Bear with him on that transatlantic crossing who was named "Far and Sure?" Don't misunderstand me on this----eg those kids from Tillie's class had some remarkably strong connections to their Teddy Bears. It was sort of an American vestige of an English aristocratic boarding school thing.

I'd still like to look into the ethos of this whole pen name thing that seemed to be fairly common in that era. Was it just a curious literary game they were all playing back then? Maybe it was like the NINA thing in the NY Times by play critic Hershfeld----eg to get readers to get addicted to figuring out a riddle!  ;)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 11:05:59 AM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #40 on: October 22, 2008, 10:58:46 AM »
Scribner's Magazine, in 1891 in an artilce titled "Safety On The Atlantic" wrote;

"A few years earlier, when the (Cunard) Aurania was approaching land in a fog, the passengers who were smoking their after-dinner cigars suddenly saw looming above them, and above the topmasts, the cliffs which were supposed to be many miles away.   The captain was far out of his reckoning, but was going so slowly that he was able to back into the Channel with slight damage."


Let's compare this to Far and Sure's account 22 years later;

"A number of years ago your correspondent was a passenger on a crippled ocean liner, and for nearly a week we had been making but little headway under sail. For several days we had lost our bearings and a fog that could almost be cut in half with a knife had settled on us. At last it lifted and we found that we were quite close to the Newfoundland coast, and we finally made the harbor of St.John for repairs."


"Far and Sure" was most definitely Albert Warren Tillinghast.

And Albert W. Tillinghast most assuredly and most precisely tells us who designed Merion..  He's the only one who wrote that he saw the plans prior and then unabashedly and most confidently placed the authorship credit in one man's hands once the course opened and then again years later when Merion was about to host its first US Open.

The last piece of the puzzle has been found and in the words of Sherlock Holmes, "Case Closed"!    ::) ;) ;D
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 11:10:01 AM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #41 on: October 22, 2008, 11:11:10 AM »
MikeC:

That sort of sounds a lot too similar to be just a coincidence!  ???

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #42 on: October 22, 2008, 11:18:48 AM »
MikeC:

Actually, I have a really logical explanation for why these kinds of near wrecks off Newfoundland happened with some regularity. Some of those passenger ship captains who were married were getting some on the side from a few of those cute Newfoundlander lasses and this was the only way they could construct a reliable "Beard" to get ashore. I think those captains had that "near wreck" thing off St. Johns down to a nautical art form.

I'm not quite sure how they produced the fog on call that you could cut with a knife but give me about a week and I should be able to get to the bottom of that too.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #43 on: October 22, 2008, 11:31:10 AM »
Mike,

I apologize for not attributing the sailing reference of "Far and Sure" to you as I rememberred it but not the details.

Tilly was NOT that person on board the ship. The first time that tilly took any ocean voyage (other than possibly as a child) was in 1895 when he went to St. Andrews for the first time.

Mike, what you have shown is that Albert Warren Tillinghast was most definitely NOT "Far and Sure."

Again, it seems everyone might have missed the minor point I also made when I mentioned that I read a number of articles by a British golf writer while researching at the PGA Museum & Library (very open to the public & I encourage any & all to have a look and enjoy themselves) in Port St. Lucie who wrote under the name of "Far and Sure."

I have no idea if it is the same one who did so in The American Golfer.

Tom Paul, Travis wrote many articles for The American Golfer without using his name in the credits. That he would give himself the pseudonym of "Far and Sure" and write articles as that person isn't a stretch at all but most likely what happened.


Mike_Cirba

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #44 on: October 22, 2008, 11:39:56 AM »
Phil,

The manifest says that Albert W. Tillinghast was travelling from Liverpool with Mr. & Mrs. B.C. Tillnghast, arriving New York City, final destination Philadelphia, and that he was approximately 14 years old.

I just sent you a copy for your review.   

I have to say that I find it ironic that a manifest was first used here as proof that Hugh Wilson couldn't have designed Merion and now a manifest finally proves that he did.

« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 11:58:26 AM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #45 on: October 22, 2008, 12:00:37 PM »
Phil:

Wait until you see this ship manifest.

It has the right initials for both father and son (B.C. and Albert W.) traveling together and both from Philadelphia. If that really wasn't Tillie and his father (and mother) what would be the odds of that? It would have to be more than a million to one.

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #46 on: October 22, 2008, 12:12:47 PM »
Here is that manifest for those keeping score at home.  ;)

@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #47 on: October 22, 2008, 12:21:56 PM »
In our little burg of less than 5k, a young las that recently moved here has the same 3 initials of a long established resident. They have the same first and middle names. What's really amazing, they have the same birthday. We celebrated it on Monday 10-20. Million to one? Maybe less?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

TEPaul

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #48 on: October 22, 2008, 12:28:50 PM »
Adam:

But we're talking about two people with the correct initials traveling together. Right city of residence, basically all the right ages etc. If that wasn't Tillie and his father and mother I'll eat my hat.

There also seems to be some confusion in this discussion between some of the discussants. It looks like Phil has put Tillie in other places against a transatlantic trip that took place much later. I can't see the date on this particular manifest but MikeC says it was the early 1890s. Tillie was a teenager.

Of course I'm still trying to figure out how in the world Tom MacWood determined the identity of "Far and Sure" off of a ship's records or how he even determined the ship itself. And I'm also quite sure he will probably continue to maintain it but refuse to explain it.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2008, 12:31:47 PM by TEPaul »

Phil_the_Author

Re: Tillinghast articles from the Philadelphia Record
« Reply #49 on: October 22, 2008, 02:21:27 PM »
Tom Paul,

You're confusing several replies into a single idea. I referred to Tom Macwood's comment about "Far and Sure's" sea voyage as if he was refering to it taking place during the time of the writings in question. In this I was incorrect in two ways. First, by implying that it was Tom who posted it earlier rather than mike and secondly that Tom Mac was applying it to that time period. He wasn't and I goofed.

Now as far as this manifest is concerned. That is definitely Tilly & his parents and is a wonderful find. When the question of whether or not Tilly had travelled overseas before 1895 was first brought up (goes back to the Merion threads) David Moriarity found a Tillinghast who had travelled to Cuba in the early 1890's and wondered to me whether this was tilly. I told him it wasn't and have since ascertained that my conclusion was correct. It was B.C.'s brother who travelled there on business for the Rubber Goods Company. He was the manager of the Market Street store at the time.

In addition, the family has been quite unaware of any overseas travel by Tilly as family legend has it that his first overseas travel was after he was married. This was the 1895 trip to St. Andrews following Tilly & Lillian's 1894 wedding.

I do though have very serious doubts that this is the voyage that "Far and Sure" was refering to for I can date this quite accurately. Tilly was born in May of 1875. As the manifest lists his age as 14 the voyage would have to have taken place between May 1899 and May 1990. The article refered to by "Far and Sure" places the date of the voyage in question as being "A number of years ago..."

I'm sorry Mike, but to conclude then that it must have taken place in the early 1890's based upon this singular account and one from Scribner's in 1891 that is similar at best and lacking any details that would allow for any close to a definitive conclusion that both refered to the same event is ludicrous.

Now, on a positive note, the date of the Tillinghast's family's trip based upon Tilly's age doesn't necessarily preclude it, but it should certainly provide the information needed to conclusively research the answer. These, then, are the questions that need answering:

1- Is this manifest for the ship Aurania?
2- What is the exact dates of sailing for which this manifest refers?
3- What was the exact date that the Aurania suffer this incident?

Unless these questions are answered and match with Tilly's age you simply cannot conclude that Tilly was on board the ship in question. To then use it as proof that Tilly was "Far and Sure" is a leap of enormous proportions that is akin to Evel Knevil's Snake River jump that was bought into by thousands and watched on live television by millions and yet when it failed entirely was greeted with the perfection of 20-20 hindsight by many pundits stating how obvious it was that he would fail.

I am actually hoping that this isn't the case, but I just don't see how it could be...

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