[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

You blame the trees.  I blame the bunker.  When Charlie took out the bunker in his diagram just before your post, I think it eliminated the problem which you assign to the trees.

[Kalen Braley]

I was thinking more along the lines of removing the trees but put countouring in the right half of the fairway LZ that means if hitting a draw the ball will roll all the way to the left.

That way the left to right shot will still be the prefferd shot to hold the slope, and a draw is still "punished"

[Charlie Goerges]

Patrick,

You are correct, the bunker and trees are not compatible. I did a quick touch-up to remove the bunker, and I think I'll fix it in the original images as well. I hope that my changes will fix the problem in the way Tom described.

All,

The bunker was just a lark on my part, I just can't help tinkering sometimes (I am a graphic designer by trade). I only wanted to illustrate a dogleg with a fall-away fairway then put some trees in for the sake of this discussion, and I have a much easier time expressing spacial ideas with images than with words. So I pledge from this point on, to avoid needless visual flourishes or suffer the penalty of . . . death.

Oh, by the way, I am working on more examples, but I'd like to hear some names and/or definitions for this type of tree usage. And feel free to add examples or suggest examples that you'd like me to illustrate.

[Jim Nugent]

To take draw out of the equation, more trees may need to line the right side of the fairway from the tee.  The way you have it pictured now, a high ball hitter could start out right and carry the trees. 

[Doug Siebert]

Given the position where the trees are shown and the landing area for the drives, one could still play a draw over the trees with a relatively high drive.  Not saying its best alternative, but if you naturally drew it you might prefer that option.  The high launch angles modern equipment encourages have reduced the "aerial hazard" aspect of trees.

The solution I see more and more often now to force golfers to play the hole as dictated is by planting some new trees fairly close to the tee that force one to at least start the shot on the intended line.  I worry about what will happen with those trees 10 or 20 years down the road if they aren't carefully maintained.  I see enough "screw you" trees as it is, but I think I'll see more of them in the future.

The screw you tree is at least better than the alternative I have seen employed a few times here and there, the fence!

[Charlie Goerges]

Jim,

I wouldn't have a problem with someone being able to do that, and in the example (though it may not be clear) once you get past the corner and the ridge slopes left to right, the whole fairway slopes right to left. So if someone goes over, it will definitely roll out to the left side of the fairway or rough. Oh, and FYI, the drives depicted are over 290 yards, not including roll, which translates to about 250-260 from the middle.

Also, the primary focus is on how the trees function. There may be much better holes for the given terrain, but I just wanted a dogleg hole around a hill so that we could take a closer look at one potential use of trees.

At any rate, I appreciate the response, and I know that even at 290 yards carry, people these days can still go right over the top.

[Charlie Goerges]

This is a bit of a test with a video for an upcoming example, If it doesn't work, I'll delete the link.



EDIT: I just realized the embedded image is just a link to the photobucket video, I'll probably replace it with higher resolution later, I don't want to derail the previous example quite yet.

[Matt Varney]

Charlie,

I have a friend and he works with ANGC and some select clubs around the country providing large live specimen trees to these courses.  When Augusta has some wind and they have a couple pine trees damaged knocking off some branches they replace a 40' southern pine tree with a new 40' tree.  Trees are just like rocks to this guy he has custom designed tree spades that are 16' and he will root prune and get trees ready so he can have a selection ready to go on short notice for his clients.  Anyone that has watched The Masters has seen his work and it is amazing to watch even more amazing is his track record and the courses and clients he works with in our region.

Trees are a great feature so long as the course always understands that trees grow tall and wide over 10-20 years.  What looks good now planted as 3-4" caliper 20' tall tree only 15 feet from the fairway is a big problem in 10 years when it is 10-12" caliper tree that is 50' tall and has a width of 30-40 feet across.   The trees encroach the line of play and the option to go over them is limited only to the power players with length.  The average golfer has less options and I feel they can really hurt a good gof hole over time as the trees mature until one day the chainsaws come out.




 

[Ken Moum]

Trees are a great feature so long as the course always understands that trees grow tall and wide over 10-20 years. 

The trees encroach the line of play and the option to go over them is limited only to the power players with length.  The average golfer has less options and I feel they can really hurt a good gof hole over time as the trees mature until one day the chainsaws come out.

Me and my home course are a great example of this.

Ten years ago, when I moved to Topeka, the 432-yard 11th hole had at least three potential routes of play--despite the presence of huge trees on inside of the dogleg.

A long hitter could cut the corner and leave himself ~150 yards. 

A sharp draw around the corner could get you within 180.

You could skirt the trees with a straight ball and leave 200-220.

Even a short-hitting slicer had a place to put his tee ball on a flat lie 250 yards from the green.

At age 50, I had just enough length to cut the corner with a (prevailing) tailwind on my best days. I could usually pull off the draw or straight ball.

Today, I'm 61 and can no longer muster the carry and the 100-foot oak on the corner has broadened so much that it's almost impossible to get a ball around the corner.

It's only a few feet wider, but now all the long hitters coming in from 150 and everyone else is outside 220, usually from a deep swale.

A former member friend of mine played it for the first time in several years this summer and said, "You can't play the hole the way it was intended anymore."

Ken

[Charlie Goerges]

Matt, where can I get a job with that guy? Out in the fresh air, seeing great courses, what a deal.

Ken and Matt,

The growth factor is often greatly underestimated. I think it's at least partially because the people planting them want them to be a real hazard right away, even when the tree(s) are fairly young. This is why I would prefer to see mature, existing trees be incorporated into a design (when appropriate) rather than a bunch of trees planted after the fact. It not only looks more natural, it is more natural.

[Matt Varney]

Charlie,

My friend that works with large specimen trees has been in the business for a long time.  You all want to see something amazing go to Augusta in Spring 2009 and look at the new practice facility.  It will blow you away it looks like it has been on the property for years and its all new.

Proper size and scale allow mature trees to be incorporated into a project like this and the results are off the charts. 

Ken,

Your example is exactly what I am mean about good intentions with trees to enhance a golf hole.  I see this very often on public and private courses where they plant maples willows, pin oaks and they grow like weeds very fast.  Next thing you know 10 years have passed and really nice golf holes are really canyons with trees down both sides that are 40'-50' tall encroaching the fairway landing areas and creating tough angles to get at certain pin placements on greens.

[Ken Moum]

This is why I would prefer to see mature, existing trees be incorporated into a design (when appropriate) rather than a bunch of trees planted after the fact. It not only looks more natural, it is more natural.

Of course, that means the trees are closer to the end of their lives. It may not be a big problem in an oak forest, but out on the plains where cottonwoods are often the dominant tree, the big, old ones don't last all that long.

Even the Oaks at my course are starting go, thanks to the effects of wind and ice on old trees. (In some cases, that's not a bad thing.)

Ken

[PThomas]

here's a great example of a hole where some trees are a great hazard...

the 15th at Sebonack, par 5...the sleepy golfer might think the 2nd shot is a boring, chew-up-as-much-distance as you can type of shot, as no fairway bunkers are in play...however, if ones shot winds up on the right side of the fairway, then his third might well be stymied by the trees  on that shot

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