[Jason Topp]

I don't mean to backpeddle here, but from re-reading what I have written on this subject I see that I have made some very broad generalizations that obvioulsy do not apply acorss the board. But may I say that I do not feel that it is fair to characterize greenkeeping in these times as being irresponsible with the water applied to golf courses.

Bradley - It is refreshing to get a counter viewpoint to what you usually hear on this site. I think most people on this site are trying to learn.  I learn best when hearing multiple perspectives by people that know about an issue.

[Ian Larson]

This is one problem Ive noticed about the turf management threads on here. Generalizations. Its nobodies fault, its only the nature of the beast.

Especially when its about watering. There are so may variables that come into play with this topic.

Macro climate
Micro climate
Evapotranspiration Rates
Soil types
Turf Types
Drainage
Annual Rainfall
Irrigation Systems
Irrigation Designs
Water Source
Water Quality
Type of Club
Clubs Expectations

Overwatering does occur Ive seen it first hand. But that doesnt apply across the board obviously. And for anybody to come on here and throw their super under the bus because they saw some wet spots is ridiculous. And for anybody to come on here and make broad generalizations about watering practices is naive.

These turf threads are great and I do think they are very informative to the members on here that just want to learn. But I also think both the supers and the knowledge thirsty to both beware about making generalizations.

 

[Jason Topp]

Overwatering does occur Ive seen it first hand. But that doesnt apply across the board obviously. And for anybody to come on here and throw their super under the bus because they saw some wet spots is ridiculous. And for anybody to come on here and make broad generalizations about watering practices is naive.

Ian - how do you determine whether or not turf is overwatered?

[Ian Larson]

Good question Jason,

Its site specific. I cant answer that unless you were to fill me on on some of the variables that I listed below.

I will say that if there is a wet spot on the golf course that does not mean your super overwaters. Nobody knows what all of the challenges and variables he has to deal with.

[Ray Richard]

As a former superintendent I can sympathize with collegues who are accused of overwatering. All supers understand that too much water enhances fungal activity, limits root establishment, encourages Poa Annua, and limits turf density. The problem is demanding golfers who go crazy when turf is not a deep green color. If you stress the turf, the playing conditions will be improved in the long and short run, but you will get fired in the process.

It's easier to overwater and listen to the complaints about boggy conditions.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Ian,

Thanks for concise list of reasons. That is about what I was attempting, but not done so well.

Jason,

Most supers now use ET data.  They know how much water was lost to evap last night and replace it, or a portion thereof.  It's still a judgement deal - as I said earlier, no reason to keep turf at 100% field capacity.  BTW, when wet spots occur, its usually because the soils are near 100% saturation, rather than near optimum. 

As someone noted, it takes a lot of effort to keep soil near optimum moisture, and turf near optimum moisture.  Many supers don't have the time, system, or manpower to worry in that much detail.  Thus, it is easy and safer to overwater by a smidge than under water by a smidge.  There is no reason to over water by so much that balls would plug.

If a super is in doubt as to whether they are going to get rain, you can bet they water if turf needs it.  Sometimes, if they have let turf go really dry (trying to get the look some here want) then they know they have to water more on the deep infrequent cycle.  If rain hits during or just after a deep water cycle, then its really soggy.  That's why many prefer to water lighter but more frequently.

The problem is, there will be weather conditions that catch almost any type of watering scheme and put them in a bad position.  Its still some guesswork until the build courses under domes or learn how to control the weather.

The myth of real saturation is probably quite rare for reasons mentioned.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

   I made a planned fertilizer application on my five sand greens this morning. The lable of the fertilizer calls for .25" of irrigation or rain minimum following applications. I ran my full circle heads for 6 mins. and did two reps. for a total of 12min.  This is much less than the label calls for but I know from experience that I can get by with this amount.  Even still,  If you play my course today or tomorrow you will see that these five greens are softer and have more ball marks.  The other 15 soil greens have not seen water for over a week.   Making comparisons based on limited information is difficult.

[Norbert P]

 Ian, nice list. Perhaps another could be added to the variables - design. I've seen greens constructed that would not allow a shot to hold unless that green is softened with water - thus forcing the greenskeeper to water for issues of pace of play and, assumably, the other greens would have to be watered for consistency. 

[Tom_Doak]

Ian:

You almost had me on your side, until the last two items on your list:

Type of Club
Club's Expectations

I'll agree they are both factors in irrigation usage, but if you are going back to Bradley's original premise, neither of these two has anything to do with the health of the turf and what the grass needs.

[Ian Larson]

Tom,

Very true.

Just like you said it can determine water useage but its irrelevant to what the plant needs.

To elaborate on my point....

Its more easily accepted to play a muni or public and have it overwatered. They dont have the budgets to use the labor to rely on handwatering and the super is going to overdo it rather than burn the place up. Plus at these kinds of facilities you usually dont see anyone on the maintenance crew past 2 o'clock. In the summer a green can burn up oh so easily between 2 and 5. So because of overtime constraints or the lack of motivation to be out there handwatering the super is going to water the crap out of the place.

At a private facility the desire for firm and fast and high end playabilty could be put at a premium. They dont want burnt up greens but they also want the firm and true greens, the firm and tight fairways and approaches. This is where the super has a benchmark, a reference point as to how far he can push the turf but keep it healthy at the same time. And that is such a fine line.

And I even generalized myself with these points because there are always exceptions, and I can think of a ton of exceptions to both of these scenarios. It all just comes down to this.....

1. What the super is supposed to accomplish per the clubs expectations.

2. What the super can actually accomplish within budget.

3. What the super can actually accomplish with his irrigation system.

4. What the super actually feels like accomplishing....................some dont care and just want to be home by 2:30.

[JSPayne]

This is the reality:

Imagine, if you will, a completely flat, level, pure 100 acre stand of grass, irrigated on equal spacing with about 1000 large, turf-type sprinklers (including all the miles of pressurized piping underground that accompany such a system). Now imagine dropping 100 golf balls, at random, from a low-flying helicopter over that plot of land. For your average golfer, and possibly even some on this site, if half a dozen of those balls became plugged or had mud on them, this entire 100 acres would be deemed "overwatered." No consideration to possible varied soil types, nor a leaking sprinkler, nor a maintenance worker who just syringed a hot spot, nor an underground leaking pipe, nor an area that has been driven over 100 times a day by a golf cart, nor watering in of a fertilizer or pesticide application, nor a dozen plus other possibilities.

Now just try and fathom what the average expectations of a super, over 100 acres of incrediably more varied terrain with a much higher number of variables are in golf today.

And how are we, as supers, supposed to avoid the "overwatering" label without posting a small sign by every slightly wet spot with the reasoning and rationale behind why it occured?

[Bradley Anderson]

Brad:

That settles it then---when you come here to Philly it is Scott Anderson of HVGC you need to speak with. He has what can only be considered a really dry and F&F course and has been that for over 20 years and he also has a really old single row irrigation system and it seems he likes it and does not want to consider a new one to get the appropriate water to different spots.

He once drew me a little schematic of how he even things out with his old system but I must say I never really understood it?

But logically I must admit it may be easier for him to do since his golf course is routed through a real valley and I don't see that water would ever collect and puddle on any of his fairways.

An interesting subject indeed though, that just proves that nothing is as simple as most think, I guess.

As to the general subject of over-watering, though, it was and is a reality, in my opinion, on some courses. My course used to put about 15 million gallons a year down and now we put down a bit more than one third of that amount. (At least we did in the last few years until some of the members freaked out! ).

Tom,

I had my last course that way, or at least I would like to think I did. But it took a lot of time to get the grasses right and to get the organic matter reduced in the soils. This is where I guess I can agree with Patrick about the connection between the club culture and the issue of water. A club that becomes F&F has to go through hell for a while to get there.

But I still maintain that that doesn't mean that my profession or the golf course industry as a whole is overwatering. We are all in support of research and advances in technology to reduce water. Last week we had a big fund raiser here in Michigan to raise more money for turfgrass research. My assistant put a lot of hours into this after working his 10 to 12 hour days here. Our profession really cares about advances in turf research.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JS Payne,

I may be mistaken, but, I don't think the phrase "over watering" is contexted in the sense that a golf course has a few wet spots.

I believe it's a systemic condition rather than an isolated condition.

[John Kavanaugh]

Our profession really cares about advances in turf research.

Turf research provides job security and drives up salaries, it is the boon of all we love.  Those who are not supers that is.  Could anyone name one advance in golf through turf research that has made golf better today than it was prior to 1960.

[Don_Mahaffey]

Plus at these kinds of facilities you usually dont see anyone on the maintenance crew past 2 o'clock.

Ian,
Complete bullshit. My Grandfather was a muni supt. for 20+ years and if I had $1 for every day he worked past 2pm, I could buy you and all your buddies a top notch fine dining meal in NO this Feb...but after that comment I don’t think I would. I was a "public" supt for 15 years. I worked well after 2 almost every day of that tenure. What in the hell makes you think you can come on here and write such a thing as if only the private guys work hard? Supers that care do what they have to do to meet their expectations, regardless of where they work.

[John Kavanaugh]

Plus at these kinds of facilities you usually dont see anyone on the maintenance crew past 2 o'clock.

Ian,
Complete bullshit. My Grandfather was a muni supt. for 20+ years and if I had $1 for every day he worked past 2pm, I could buy you and all your buddies a top notch fine dining meal in NO this Feb...but after that comment I don’t think I would. I was a "public" supt for 15 years. I worked well after 2 almost every day of that tenure. What in the hell makes you think you can come on here and write such a thing as if only the private guys work hard? Supers that care do what they have to do to meet their expectations, regardless of where they work.

It seems only natural that the lower the budget the more hours a super will be forced to work. 

[Ian Larson]

Calm down Don, reread the last part of my post.

"And I even generalized myself with these points because there are always exceptions, and I can think of a ton of exceptions to both of these scenarios."

Did you miss that? Or do you just want to take it upon yourself to take personal offense to a broad statement that did not imply anywhere that private guys work harder than public guys or vice versa. Take the gloves off Don.

...and just because a guy is gone at 2 doesnt mean he works any less harder than the other guy. Dont put words in my mouth.



You should be more worried about JK thinking turf research is the root of all evil and that the superintendent position should be eliminated.

[Bradley Anderson]

John,

How many hours should a superintendent work, and what should his salary be?

[Jason Topp]

Jason,


As someone noted, it takes a lot of effort to keep soil near optimum moisture, and turf near optimum moisture.  Many supers don't have the time, system, or manpower to worry in that much detail.  Thus, it is easy and safer to overwater by a smidge than under water by a smidge.  There is no reason to over water by so much that balls would plug.

Is there debate among among supers as to what constitutes optimum moisture or is that pretty much a scientific fact?

[Bradley Anderson]

Our profession really cares about advances in turf research.

Turf research provides job security and drives up salaries, it is the boon of all we love.  Those who are not supers that is.  Could anyone name one advance in golf through turf research that has made golf better today than it was prior to 1960.

Prior to 1960 superintendents were spraying lead arsenic to control Poa, and Mercury to control fungus growth. Do really want to go back to that?
 
You should go to a turf day at a University that has turf research and meet a genuine turf researcher. You won't meet more down to earth humble and kind people.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

How many hours should a superintendent work, and what should his salary be?

Same as the pro should work.

[John Kavanaugh]

Our profession really cares about advances in turf research.

Turf research provides job security and drives up salaries, it is the boon of all we love.  Those who are not supers that is.  Could anyone name one advance in golf through turf research that has made golf better today than it was prior to 1960.

Prior to 1960 superintendents were spraying lead arsenic to control Poa, and Mercury to control fungus growth. Do really want to go back to that?
 

If it would help control the duck/geese/poop rat population I'm all for it.  So, turf research improves the environment is all you got?

[John Kavanaugh]

Our profession really cares about advances in turf research.

Turf research provides job security and drives up salaries, it is the boon of all we love.  Those who are not supers that is.  Could anyone name one advance in golf through turf research that has made golf better today than it was prior to 1960.

You should go to a turf day at a University that has turf research and meet a genuine turf researcher. You won't meet more down to earth humble and kind people.

Well yea, who you think has the best weed on campus?

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

How many hours should a superintendent work, and what should his salary be?

Same as the pro should work.

I think this hides a hidden problem with modern club management when compared to life back in the day.  I miss the day when the Pro was the highest paid Numero Uno Stud Horse on campus.  Slowly year to year the Super has inched his role and salary up to the Pro until some time in our recent past he has become the most expensive employee at the club.  Minus the God knows what for Manager.  When the Pro is in charge the membership is served, when the Super is in charge the Super's reputation and resume are served.  It would not surprise me a bit that some supers might say "If the membership ain't complaining the Super must be slacking."  We need a return to a Pro based culture where the golf is the ichiban issue of the day.

[Ian Larson]

Youre a genius John. Any good parking lots paved today?

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