[wsmorrison]

Tom Doak,

If the qualities of the long par 5 require 3 excellent shots to position the ball properly on the green to have a reasonable attempt at birdie, then I think it is fine to have a true 3-shot par 5.  I once heard a story that Eugene Grace resigned from Augusta National because he believed strongly in the true 3-shot par 5.  I like the idea of on occasion having to hit three excellent shots to have a chance at birdie or even par.

[Michael Blake]

I had heard Davis Love III hit Pine Valley's #7 in two, using 2 iron-2 iron.  I assume hit 2nd two iron was out of the hazard.

Every marshall (PV member) I asked at the Crump Cup dismissed as it as a rumor.

Anyone ever hear of this 'rumor?'  Sully I know you've caddied there...any truth to it?

[Evan Fleisher]

According to my caddie at Canterbury two weeks ago...number 16 has indeed been conquered in two in recent history.

[Patrick_Mucci]

wwhitehead:

After some thought on the topic, I decided that I didn't like the idea of a totally unreachable hole, either. 

If players CANNOT reach in two then they aren't tempted to overhit on the first or second shot; they will just play 3-wood, 4-iron, 8-iron to the green.

So, I think nearly all par-5's should be theoretically reachable so that the strong player is consumed by temptation.

Tom Doak,

Why shouldn't the best players in the world be faced with the same challenge that the great majority of amateurs are asked to meet ?

Namely, the requirement to hit three good consecutive shots in order to arrive on the putting surface in regulation.

[Ronald Montesano]

John, I cannot swear on a bible, but that is what I recall.  Lord knows he had enough cracks at it.  Certainly the membership could answer indisputably as to the Hill of Fame hole.

Ron M.

[JNC Lyon]

Hank Kuehne was on Oak Hill's 13th when he won his US Amateur, so that one is certainly a gonner. 

That's false.  No one has ever hit Number 13 from all the way back in two shots.  Kuehne didn't hit in the amateur.  13 at Oak Hill East remains untouched.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Sounds like someone needs to host JB Holmes out at Crystal Downs.

I'll bet he'd have a go at those two holes in 2.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

You asked "Why shouldn't the best players in the world be faced with the same challenge that the great majority of amateurs are asked to meet?"

And in general, I agree with you on that point ... in fact I think I've used those same words to defend bunkers in the middle of the landing area, "uncarryable" cross bunkers, etc.

However, I don't think I've ever seen a hole that for a great player "requires three good consecutive shots in order to reach the green in regulation".  Even the par-5 holes listed in the article will allow a really good player to get away with a poor drive or poor second shot.  I think to make the best players hit three good shots the hole would have to be 650-700 yards, and that's a bit much.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

No doubt J.B. Holmes COULD hit either hole at Crystal Downs, although he hasn't inquired about coming up here to try.

One thing about this category that bothers me is that the feat should be accomplished in actual play.  If somebody comes up and hits a dozen balls off a good drive, there aren't going to be too many holes that can withstand all that ... maybe someone would even reach the 7th at Pine Valley.

I wonder if any of the boys in New Zealand will go for the 15th at Cape Kidnappers with all that money on the line?  You are risking penalty shots there ...

[archie_struthers]

 :


Hey Tom Doak.... I'll stand by my :  " it's amazing that no one has reached it comment"  relative to #7 at PVGC

...while understanding that most good players hit a lay-up club off the tee , I saw more than a few guys have it all the way down at the end of the fairway, and a couple sitting up in the rough with a good lie...remember we're talking no one has hit it , even by bouncing one off a sprinkler head, a rock in the bunker , or running one thru an up onto the green...the carry is probably about 260 plus/minus from the end to the front of the green  wich is eminently feasible.... I know you have to hold the green et al.... but it should have happend by now!

Knowing just how far guys hit it today....given the new equipment...not hitting almost any par five , certainly one under 600 yards is amazing to me..  For us mere mortals #15 still seems the more difficult feat ! 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick:

You asked "Why shouldn't the best players in the world be faced with the same challenge that the great majority of amateurs are asked to meet?"

And in general, I agree with you on that point ... in fact I think I've used those same words to defend bunkers in the middle of the landing area, "uncarryable" cross bunkers, etc.

However, I don't think I've ever seen a hole that for a great player "requires three good consecutive shots in order to reach the green in regulation".  Even the par-5 holes listed in the article will allow a really good player to get away with a poor drive or poor second shot. 


I'd agree that the holes listed allow for a "marginal" shot.
I don't know that they allow for two "marginal" shots.

I think to make the best players hit three good shots the hole would have to be 650-700 yards, and that's a bit much.

It would seem so, but, perhaps that's because we're limited by historical perspective.

A 700 yard hole is so alien to those of us whose memories conjure up recollections of 470-500 yard holes that couldn't be hit in two.

Perhaps we have a harder time fathoming a 700 yard par 5 than a really good young golfer who's a junior in high school.

10-20 years ago I never would have imagined par 4's that were 520 yards long.

[Ryan Chin]

How about #12 at Winged Foot (West) from the new back tee. That deck stretches that hole to 630 yards, 70 yards further than before, and it's a hard right-to-left hole with some sort of crazy fairway contour that makes it hard to hold (Tillinghast must have had to cover some boulders or such). Or maybe it just seemed like forever....

[JESII]

Ryan,

I heard (not saw) that JB Holmes hit #12 during the 2004 US Amateur...in the air. I believe they used the 630 tee that week, but possibly not that day. I did see him hit a ridiculously long three-wood off the 17th tee that would indicate he could cover 630 yards in two shots...


#7 at Pine Valley has been over-hit, but never actually hit. Charlie Raudenbush's son Matt is extremely long and told me he hit it in the back bunker one day. Also,onre of their former assistant pros hit it on the green after chipping out of the left woods to the end of the fairway, so it is feasible (for some).

For me, the new back tee leaves a 500 yard total carry to clear Hells Half Acre...that's plenty to worry about.

[TEPaul]

Sully:

I believe before any tee length addition the carry to HHA was around 300 yards. Add to that the 100 yard carry across HHA. Are you saying they've added app 100 yards of tee length addition on #7?

I think the far side of HHA to the middle of the green has got to be about 175. Does this mean the hole is now 675 yards?

I'd think the total carry over HHA from the tips has to be more like 450-460 but I'm not exactly aware where those new tips are. Are they on the left or right or both?

[JESII]

I might just be getting old Tom...

[Tom_Doak]

Tom Paul:

If I remember from my old measurements, before the new back tee, you had to carry it 430 yards in two to be clearly over the hazard ... so if they've added 70 yards, Sully's calculation is right.  It might have been a bit less to the left side, but I'm pretty sure it was more than 400 yards before.

[JESII]

I think HHA is more than 100 yards across.

In this years Crump guys were driving it anywhere from 20 - 50 yards into the fairway...it sure looks like a long way to get over from there...

[archie_struthers]

 


hey guys walked off the "Acre" many times back in the day...my memory which is generally good for yardage

says it's approximately 105 across


I'm going to play there Thursday and will do some reconnaissance work on NUMERO 7 ....

JES appreciate you jumping on board ...don't you think it is kind of spooky that no one has ever gotten one on the green  in two...even from the front tees....

IMHO the strategy of the hole ...and the lack of local members that play lots of rounds there has combined to keep the feat from happening...if  guys like Matt Raudenbush played more rounds there he would hit it
sooner or later....he's one of the few locals that plays there a lot with that kind of distance...his dad Charley could have come close more than a few times when we were playing after work but he was too smart to take a rip at it ...I even came close once ...with some serious wind behind  LOL! 

Note: I wasn"t as cerebral as the boss

It's pretty clear to me that #7   is reachable..

and someone could hold it ...I'm going to go on a limb and say it happens before 2010....book it !

[JESII]

Arch,

I'll take the 2010 bet and give you 2 to 1.

The toughest part, in my mind, is getting the drive into a position to give it a go. Plenty of guys...especially in today's Crump field, can hit a three wood 265 and straight in the air, but the drive has to be absolutely perfect to leave only 265 front...forget the new back tee, at least until Holmes or Watson are there...although Trip Kuehne played in the Crump for a few years and he'd have the distance to get there...outside of a medal play qualifier.

[archie_struthers]

 


We've got action JES

How about this bet....as two to one after all these  virginal years doesn;t seem kosher


Ground rules for your approval


Doesn't have to be a tournament ...just need good witnesses , caddies eligible as players or witnesses but must attest to feat with one hand on the Daily Racing Form and in front of Lennie Ward

If it happens on Caddy Day  I'll stipulate to tougher corroboration ! LOL

Any tees OK  ,  just must be in normal course of play ....from Shelly tees must be a senior golfer

afternoon  (partial rounds )  legal ! , winter rules disqualifies 


stakes

 golf .....in Philly for a Jersey group  at Huntingdon Valley ...we'll play your guys even but you must have two fifty plus dudes ...preferably TEP as one of seniors ....lunch at your favorite tavern included



if no hits green by October 1.....2009 


golf at your choice Twisted Dune or Greate Bay plus food and drink at Charlie's or the Anchorage  in Somers Point ...some gambling mandatory
while golfing

 
It's gonna happen soon !   Seven will fall from the list of untouchables !

regards.....Archie


 

[john_stiles]

It is fun to review the many holes that have fallen out of this category.

Today, unless it is more than 700 yards, then it is reachable on relatively flat terrain,   that isn't slow and soft.

Who is kidding who ?

Just host a college tournament where 4 out 5 scores count or a Nationwide event !!

JB Holmes is just a few years removed from  Univ of Kentucky golf.

Maybe 750 yards, slightly uphill all the way, and watered every morning would do the trick to create an untouchable.     Oh, and make that wet Zoysia grass !!

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