[Kenny Baer]

My Father just played in a golf tournament this Monday at Black Creek Club and said he loved the golf course.  He is a pretty good player and played one of his best rounds ever (it would be hard not to love anything playing one of your best ever rounds) but he isn't real big on Arch.

He thought the Biarritz hole was goofy as he had never seen anything like that before; what he said next shocked me....the pin location for the day was in the trench....was the hole built with that pin location in mind.  I have never played a course with a true biarritz green but I always assumed that the pin's craziest location would still be a flagstick away from the trench. 

My question is; Is is normal for a pin to be in the trench of a biarritz green, did the arch have that in mind when building the hole, or was that just a fun ploy by maintenence?

What do you guys think of biarritz greens?

I would love the opportunity to play one and think it would be a ton of fun; that is the kind arch that makes golf interesting; the same hole with a true biarritz green could play 100 different ways.....but I don't know about the pin being in the trench; to me that is just a little over the top; putt putt comes to mind.

[Adam Russell]

Kenny,
 I played Black Creek in August, and the pin was on the back shelf. I think it has to be maintenance shenanigans, because that move defies the intent of the hole. But what's weird to me at Black Creek is that the trench is grown to a higher mowing height (perhaps only during stress summer months?)... defeating the archie's intent anyway. When I played it, it wasn't too much higher than the front/back, but noticeable.

[Anthony Gray]

  I have played this hole at Black Creek several times but have never seen the pin in the swale. But I have wanted to play it with that pin placement. I think the question is if it is a fair pin placement. I would say that it is. Long or short of the swale the golfer has a chance to two putt. By placeing your first putt into the swale the secound putt is very makeable. The most difficult pin placement is defintely in the back. From the front plateau a two putt is a major accomplishment. In the swale is a fun pin placement. After all we all play for fun. "Play it as it lies"

[Adam Russell]

The intent of the Biarritz is to have the pleasure of seeing a well-excuted, low-running wood shot disappear into the trough and reappear on the other side, where the flag should be. That's why I think it is not normal and not the gca's intent or for that matter the holes design. I personally think the one at Black Creek is fantastic because of the downhill nature of guessing what iron to flight for the downhill drop that will still be able to run through the trench. The green speed seemed to encourage a low runner the day I played.

[JohnV]

I'm guessing that the tournament was some kind of a charity event or the like and that there was a hole-in-one prize on the hole.  They wanted to give it away and that is a great location for an ace I'd think.

[Steve Curry]

Love the Biarritz and the one at Black Creek in particular.  The hole cut in the trough would be an easier one.

Steve

[Dean Paolucci]

I agree with Steve, I really love biarritz holes and greens.  Regarding your question in particular, the biarritz green #13 at Sommerset Hills is routinly in the trough.  It is not particularly easy either.  Short shots get consumed by a false front and long shots are faced with a severe slope which can move the ball out of the trough or around in the trough.  Biarritz holes on the other hand provide some of the most unique template par 3 holes anywhere.  The 13th at the Knoll comes to mind as a real beauty.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here are 2 pics showing front and back pin placements:

[Matt Varney]

I played Black Creek about 3 weeks ago and the course was in really good condition leading up to the Nationwide Tour event this month.  If you really like design features on a golf course you should play this course it is fun and has some really nice golf holes.  Holes #5, #12, #13, #16 and #17 are all really interesting and fun to play.

With regard to the #17 Biarritz Green - the pin was set on the far back right corner and was playing about 205-210 yards from the tee we played.  I hit 5 iron to the middle hoping to carry the trough and I came up just short.  My ball came to rest in the very bottom of the trough and I ended up three-putting because my first putt from the trough to the pin was at least 45 feet long.  I misjudged the contour my ball went to the right and I had a 12 foot putt to save par that I just missed.  I like this hole but, the most important shot is the tee shot to get in proper position  the putt is not hard if your ball is on the correct tier near the pin placement.

I made a bogey (4) and my two playing partners made birdies on this par 3.  They both hit hybrids into the green and they had enough roll to carry the ball to the back tier so they only had a relatively flat 20 foot putt.  What everyone fails to realize the first time they play this hole is that the green is 60 yards long so its just huge and it is shaped like a rectangle and built on a slight angle.  A golf hole that requires you to think and god help you if you hit the ball over the green or land in the right greenside bunker.  If the pin is cut tight in one of the corners and you are short sided it will require you to hit one of the best shots in your life just to have a chance at making par.

[Scott Macpherson]

I know this thread is about the Black Creek Biarritz, but I am wondering how many courses feature a Biarritz styled hole?

Can anybody name all the courses?

scott

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

For years, the pin was put in the trough of the Yale Biartiz hole once a season, invariably there was a hole-in-one. I've talked with people who played it and said the pin position was really fun.

Tony

[Scott Wicker]

The hole was in the "trench" last Monday due to a hole-in-one contest and a minimum yardage requirement by the insurance company.  The rear portion of the Biarritz was closed to play last week as we prepared for this week's Nationwide Tour event, The Chattanooga Classic.  To meet the minimum yardage an in-swale hole placement was necessary. 

There is only one day of the year that the swale placement is intentionally used and that is during the Wednesday pro-am of the nationwide tournament.  PGA Tour officials call it the greatest pro-am placement on the tour.  Though fun, I will admit that it is a little goofy.  The hole is most often placed on the back portion of the green during normal play.

We do mow the entire green with the same mower throughout the year with no concessions.  There are a couple of contours within the swale and at the crest of the ridges that are simply to severe to get the same quality of cut as the rest of the green.

Scott Wicker
Black Creek Club

[Jay Flemma]

Bravo, Scott.  Nice to see Brian Silva's work get the recognition it deserves.

[john_stiles]

Black Creek has a pretty severe swale.

One of my favorite hole locations is just in front of the swale.

The slightly downhill shot is a lot of fun.  You do not want tee shot to go past and into the swale.   But you are thinking of getting it close.  You also don't want a first putt of 30 feet. 

Seems like a hole location,  just past the swale, and from the tee, you want to go past and never think of getting close.

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

John:

Just played Elkridge Club and the pin was on the back of the front portion, I three-putted from just in the left fringe about 30 feet from the cup, frightened by the possibility of ending up in the trough. In my opinion, a wonderful hole location on that specific green style.

Anthony

[ward peyronnin]

Before my 11 year old son and i played Black Creek several years ago we toured the course and encountered a single walking who told us his fav hole was the 17th especiaily when the pin was
in back and his shot banked off the swale downslope and carired to the next plateau.

We crested the tee later to watch a father and maybe 6 yr old putting. The wee one putted his ball up out of the swale ; ran up  and turned around and putted it back down in the swale to do it again.

We then inspected the green and i had us stand adjacent to the dip to get the scale.Our friend appeaerd on the tee and hit  his shot onto the forward level . He followed that with one more ball that indeed performed the ideal feat of bouncing on the downslope of the swale and kicking back just as described as we stood level with the void. It was great fun

[herrstein]

Scott Wicker answered the question about putting the pin in the swale.
Personally, I think it's a load of fun. Two chances for an ace when it's in there!
It's probably the easiest pin, though. I can't seem to keep the damn ball out of the swale wherever the pin is!
It is always a pivotal hole in the Nationwide Tour event. I love to watch the pros play it. This year's pin sheet, with the little circles and distance from front and edge, showed 63 from the front, 4 from the right edge! That's yards! The Tour's manager confirmed to me that that pin placement was the oddest looking location reference he had seen.

[Matt_Cohn]

how many yards long is the swale?

[paul cowley]

We...Love Golf Design...built a three level Biarritz hole when we renovated Forest Oaks CC so the PGA Tour could continue to play the GGO there...about six years ago.

#2 is a reachable, slightly down hill par five that created a lot of interest with the players, but coming early in the round, it got little camera coverage.

We felt in that as most of the original Biarritz holes were designed for a long iron or wood approach, a reachable par five would accommodate this strategy, and the down hill nature encouraged a running shot into the green.

 I forget if the swale was used for a pin position....but I think it was on a few occasions.

A pin in the back is always challenging,   and a front pin is almost equally so because of the need to play short of the green to get a ball close.

A pin in the middle can be difficult if don't find yourself in the swale...... because it's hard to get your first put near the hole due to the fast down slopes.

Its an interesting hole.

[Steve Curry]

If my memory serves me the hole plays from a slight angle at the tips.  I think this is a very intersting twist, is my memory correct and is this the case on other Biarritz holes?

Thanks,
Steve

[herrstein]

how many yards long is the swale?

The bottom is about 10 feet plus or minus, maybe a little less, of are in which the ball can stop. So 3 yards.
The crests are about 9 yards, I would say, apart. It's a relatively easy shot to get the distance right. My problem is more often keeping the ball OUT of the swale!

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