[Carl Nichols]

The We-Ko-Pa website says that the courses are closed until 10/23 (Cholla) and 10/30 (Saguaro) for overseeding.  How much time needs to pass until they will be in decent shape?  Thx

[Dave Givnish]

2 weeks if you walk, 3 to 4 if you ride.

The courses will be cart path only for at least 4 weeks, so you'll probably want to walk anyway if you can.

[Jon Spaulding]

I played Saguaro last year on 11/3.....very, very walkable. Conditioning was very shaggy and slow.....so I would not recommend doing it that soon. I'd wait until 12/1 to head out there.

[BCrosby]

I played We-Ko-Pa Saguro last week. A wonderful course and well worth the trip.

Highlights for me -

- Some extreme green contours and asymetric green shapes that worked beautifully because (a) speeds are kept within reason, and (b) these green features tie in cleverly with strategies from the tee.
- Course with greens and surrounds as good as Saguro's means that you can have wide, generous fw's without diminishing interest at the tee. Which is what Saguro's got.
- It's hard to design a good uphill par 4. Saguro has a couple.
- The long par 3 17th is an interesting modern take on the Redan concept. You wouldn't guess that it's a Redan until you get to the green. Fool me once....
-  Rightly or wrongly, I got the sense that I was playing on something close to the original terrain. Which, given the terrain there, is a nice psycholgical bonus.
-  I loved the bunker sand, which has the same color as the native sand.
-  Views from all over the course are simply spectacular. The changing light on the mountain ranges to the NE over the course of the day was unforgettable.  

I also did a quick tour of the Cholla course. It too looked terrific.

Cholla has the obligatory C&C controversial par 5. Great debate among the locals about the 8th. Some hate it, some love it. Sounds like the 14th at Cuscowilla and the 16th at Bandon Trails.

All three par 5's present very difficult second shot choices. The 8th at Cholla forces you to chose between laying back to 150 plus yards (to a narrow, tough green) or risk rolling down a sloped fw into a creek bed crossing the fw at 100 yards. I thought the 8th worked well. It certainly avoids the dull lay-up shot issue.

If you are in the area, these are must play courses.

Bob

[Doug Wright]

I also did a quick tour of the Cholla course. It too looked terrific.

Cholla has the obligatory C&C controversial par 5. Great debate among the locals about the 8th. Some hate it, some love it. Sounds like the 14th at Cuscowilla and the 16th at Bandon Trails.

All three par 5's present very difficult second shot choices. The 8th at Cholla forces you to chose between laying back to 150 plus yards (to a narrow, tough green) or risk rolling down a sloped fw into a creek bed crossing the fw at 100 yards. I thought the 8th worked well. It certainly avoids the dull lay-up shot issue.

If you are in the area, these are must play courses.

Bob

Bob,  The Cholla course is by Scott Miller and predates the C&C Saguaro course by several years.  I agree that they are both fine courses.

[BCrosby]

Thanks Doug. I stand corrected. The 8th is still a good hole.

Bob

[Tom Yost]

Back to Carl's question about playability after overseed.

Tees and fairways are fine within 2-3 weeks but will be kept very wet for a month or two.  Cart path only.

The greens from my experience, require 3 weeks to be marginal, 5 weeks to be acceptable, 7 weeks until they are really rolling true and up to speed.  +/- a week either way depending on the weather conditions.

The dates to look at would be the start date:
10/6 for the Cholla,
10/13 for the Saguaro

Both courses should be in good shape by late Nov/early Dec. but may still be cart path only.

[Doug Wright]

Thanks Doug. I stand corrected. The 8th is still a good hole.

Bob

Agreed. I think it's the best par 5 on either course.  Great greensite.

What did you think of the split fairway 14th on Saguaro?

[Carl Nichols]

Thanks for the responses.  Sounds like things will be in good shape by Dec. 1. 

[BCrosby]

Doug -

I liked the split fw on the 14th. (If you are interested, I took the chancy right side and had a long iron to the green, which I pushed into the greenside bunker. A very tough bunker shot because the green is narrow and falls away from that angle. What I thought was a decent bunker shot trundled past the pin and off the left side of the green. Had to work like heck to save par from there.)

Though I like the split fw, I liked even more the narrow green and surrounds. Reminded me of the narrow green at the par 5 12th (?) at N Berwick.

Why narrow greens of that sort aren't used more on par 5's escapes me. They create all sorts of interesting issues. Without using water, trees or rough.

Bob  

[Mark Smolens]

"Both courses should be in good shape by late Nov/early Dec. but may still be cart path only."

Both courses are always cart path only, which is why Saguaro is the best of the two.  Walking that course with an electric Sun Mountain remains the best public course experience in Arizona. . .  Cholla is a very difficult walk, with a number of treks between green and tee.

[Adam Jeselnick]

Just played We-Ko-Pa Saguaro this morning... although the course was being prepped for overseeding it now tops my list of top desert layouts.  The scenery is spectacular and it is a joy to play a course that was designed for walking.

It certainly played firm and fast and given the conditions, a lot of bump-and-run type shots are possible.  Unfortunately, on a number of greens, a tight pin position precluded everything except a high approach shot.  I look forward to playing here again after the course re-opens.
-AJ

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