[Michael Dugger]

The good news is Tom could have saved a lot of money by switching to Geico.

[Mike_Cirba]

"  Located between Lake Charlevoix and Lake Michigan, the municipally operated course was built in 1896 and designed by Scotsman Willie Watson. The nine hole layout measures 3,300 yards and is a great walking experience. Superb conditioning and its unique road crossings make it a fantastic, affordable choice for players of all abilities.  "

Take it from there.

John,

The only problem with that is that we haven't been able to place Watson in Charlevoix in 1896.   

I played the course in question this summer (it's now only 9 holes) and did a bit of digging since but have not been able to prove a Watson connection at the course's inception.

[TEPaul]

ChrisB:

I don't know what the battle royal is. Mr MacWood said it was unknown what Hugh Wilson died of and I simply explained to him it is not unknown at all and that he died of kidney failure. If he wants to question that too then that's fine with me but I fail to see the point of it as he just said he thought it was unknown!  It may've been in the realm of an "Unsolved Mystery II" to him but it surely hasn't been to me. With Merion, Wilson, Myopia. Leeds etc, etc, he seems to be engaged in some kind of information competition with me and he's simply losing miserably.  Clearly that is most upsetting to him. 

[Chris_Blakely]

ChrisB:

I don't know what the battle royal is. Mr MacWood said it was unknown what Hugh Wilson died of and I simply explained to him it is not unknown at all and that he died of kidney failure. If he wants to question that too then that's fine with me but I fail to see the point of it as he just said he thought it was unknown!  It may've been in the realm of an "Unsolved Mystery II" to him but it surely hasn't been to me. With Merion, Wilson, Myopia. Leeds etc, etc, he seems to be engaged in some kind of information competition with me and he's simply losing miserably.  Clearly that is most upsetting to him. 

TEPaul,

I was speaking on a macro level on all threads where both of you post, it seems to quickly break down and come to this.  I am not going to attempt to mediate this nor do I want to get invovled.  I believe both of your contributions have been informative from a golf history standpoint.

Chris

[Mike Mosely]

***Cue music from The Simpsons**  They fight!  They fight!  They fight, they fight, they fight!  Fight, fight, fight!  Fight, fight, fight!  The Itchy and Scratchy shoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooow!

Tom and Jerry have nothin' on you guys...

[TEPaul]

MikeM:

Maybe we do and that is because I believe we have some very fundamental differences of opinion and approach on how a golf course architectural history should be properly ANALYZED. It's probably important that this website and its contributors see that and understand it. There is nothing wrong with two or even a number of different approaches to historical analysis even if they may be quite different. I like to get involved with material from clubs certainly. It is not that I'm opposed to any kind of other material from outside clubs and I have never known a single club I've been involved with to be opposed to that either or even not use it comprehensively in their history telling.

The interesting and fairly ironic thing about clubs and their archives and history books (at least from the perspective Tom MacWood seems to view clubs and what they have) is generally they have most of these newspaper and magazine articles that some on here including Tom MacWood find elsewhere from time to time. The reason for that seems pretty obvious to me----eg clubs tend to collect throughout their existence outside material that is about them and their club or course.

[john_stiles]

John,

The only problem with that is that we haven't been able to place Watson in Charlevoix in 1896.   

I played the course in question this summer (it's now only 9 holes) and did a bit of digging since but have not been able to prove a Watson connection at the course's inception.

Mike, 

I poked around Minneapolis newspaper,  hoping since Watson was there in late 1898 or so, that something would be mentioned.     

He obviously had good Michigan connections,  having done remodel at Kalamazoo per C&W,  well before Belvedere.

As you know,   Charlevoix was one the 'great northern lake links' in early 1900s.   The social club was also known as the Chicago Club, owing to hometown of many summer cottage residents.  The trains went up there and it was quite the summer social scene with many women golfers.

The point being that Watson seemed to be IN with the well-to-do golfers and social set in southern Cal,  Minneapolis,  those 'socialites/cottage residents' traveling to Charlevoix, etc.

Maybe, southern California newspapers will yield something.

John

[Mike_Cirba]

John,

Thanks for that update.

I'll be very interested to hear if you uncover additional details.   There is little doubt that Watson was at Charlevoix, as much of the shaping is very similar to what is seen down the street at Belvedere, but it would be interesting to learn that he did it during the course's inception and not a later re-do.

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