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Anthony Fowler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #25 on: October 07, 2008, 03:14:50 PM »
Sandpines
Lake Las Vegas Weiskopf
Furry Creek
San Francisco Golf Club
Norman K. Probstein Golf Course at Forest Park

Jeff, can you explain some of your choices and what you think can be learned from them?

I am surprised that Wannamoisett has not yet been mentioned.  This one would be right at the top of my list.  It shows what can be done with a small and seemingly uncharacteristic piece of property.  It also shows how much variety you can put into one course and maintain a cohesive feel.  I'll add Essex to the list as well, which demonstrates some of the same lessons.

1. Wannamoisett
2. Essex
3. Merion - already been mentioned for many obvious reasons
4. Chambers Bay - shows what can be done with a lot of money and bulldozers ( I have not played them by  Bayonne and Whistling Straits are probably good examples as well)
5. Torrey Pines - how to use the distinctive features of the property to guide the routing
6. Bandon Trails - how to incorporate the natural features of the land into the design in non-obvious ways

Ian Andrew

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2008, 03:32:03 PM »
I got stuck trying to choose between the final five - the first should be on every list.

1. St. Andrew’s (nature) – the contours make the course

If you could only study one course it would be St. Andrew’s. There are too many lessons to explain, but the one that is most important is the value of a contour on and off the green. St. Andrew’s features some of the boldest undulations on any putting surface, and positional play is important to accessing many of the pins. It shows how great greens can dictate strategy right back to the tee. The wonderful knolls, knuckles, rolls, humps, and hollows found around the greens require additional creativity to deal with. They take a player’s full imagination to overcome and there is nothing more fun than that.

2. Pinehurst #2 (Ross) – the difficulty of short grass

Whether Ross created the fall away greens and chipping areas is a moot point, all that matters is what effect it has on play. Short grass can be a more effective hazard that a bunker, it’s easier for a weaker player, but far more daunting for a better player. The advantage to a weaker player is they can play to their strengths, the disadvantage to a good player is they are faced with too many options. Bad decisions are often a bigger factor than poor execution. They may not need to be a severe as Pinehurst’s greens, but the effect is still the same.

3. San Francisco (Tillinghast) – scale and grandeur

I admire Tillinghast’s ability to think on a grand scale. This is likely the hardest of all the skills to explain or to aquire. San Francisco is as big and wide a golf course that I know, it features some of the most elaborate and bold bunkering that I have ever seen. The delight is how the architecture fits the property through Tillinghast’s use of additional clearing width and large open spaces. It takes a very clever architect to understand how to expand the scale of a golf course without overwhelming everything around it. This is one of the few cases where it works to perfection.

4. Merion (Hugh Wilson) – greatness on a small property

Merion may be the best routing in golf. On such a small property Hugh Wilson was able to find a flawless layout. The fun of the golf course routing is that it has a number of unconventional aspects to it: all par fives are in the first four holes, there is a long run of shorter holes from 7 through to 13, all climaxed by a grinding finishing 5. It works so well for two reasons; the first is that Wilson has simply used the best available holes and not been influenced by convention. The second is the rhythm of the course, it works almost like a three act play. The player is given a firm introduction to the course and it’s challenges in the opening 6, he is given an opportunity to try and be much more aggressive or to even score if he dares for the next 7, and the final act is survival. Merion gives the player all they can handle in the final 5 to see how good they really are.

5. National Golf links of America (MacDonald) – understanding strategies of the great holes

Many people believe there are no new ideas to bring to the game, that everything has been done, and the newness is more the ability of the architect to adapt old ideas to new situations. Charles Blair MacDonald adapted the great holes and strategies to create the National Golf Links of America. The lesson is simple; to be a great architect you must study and understand the ideas of the great holes before you can design them yourself. MacDonald’s adaptations are some of the finest, and some of his more innovative uses of them are well worth studying too.

6. Riviera (Thomas) – asking the player to work the ball

George Thomas probably combined strategy and beauty as well as any architect. He was a master strategist, who rewarded a player for positional play, but liked to make the player work to get the ball into position. There is no course quite like Riviera, where a player is continuously encouraged to hit either a draw or fade off the tee. Where the course excels further is the continuous balance back and forth so that no player has an advantage; many of the holes call for fade from the tee and then the draw on the approach, the next hole will often ask for the exact opposite strategy so no player can gain an advantage. He expertly used a combination of Eucalyptus trees, bunkers, slopes of the greens, and the baranca to make the player shape their shots. Riviera is a remarkably well balanced test of shot-making.

Deucie Bies

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2008, 03:48:10 PM »


6. Riviera (Thomas) – asking the player to work the ball




What about Colonial?

Jim Nugent

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2008, 04:06:43 PM »
Royal Melbourne West/East/Composite

Jeff_Stettner

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2008, 04:24:01 PM »
Are the only courses worth study all of these great ones?


See my post above.

Aha!
The only one I recognize as not great though is perhaps Sandpines.  And some like that...

But I am glad I am not the only one thinking this way anyway.

TH

Justification...

Sandpines -- Wasted Opportunity
LLV W -- Golf where a golf course should never have been built
Furry Creek -- Bad? Yes. Good? Maybe. Quirky? For sure. A fascinating place.
SF -- See greatness.
Forest Park -- The future of golf. A thoughtful course that is well-maintained literally in the center of a city with reasonable greens fees. The setting and architecture are commendable.

Tom Huckaby

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2008, 04:27:16 PM »
Excellent - well stated, Jeff.

TH

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #31 on: October 07, 2008, 05:34:48 PM »
When I was 18, I wrote to Ben Crenshaw and asked him if he was doing what I was trying to do, which courses in the U.S.A. would he recommend that I go to see?

He gave me six:

Shinnecock
National
Pine Valley
Merion
Cypress Point
Prairie Dunes (note:  neither of us had seen Crystal Downs yet)

It's still a pretty good list.

Kyle Harris

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #32 on: October 07, 2008, 05:49:41 PM »
I'm not sure how much more significant any of the ones listed so far are over anything else. Merion, Pinehurst #2, et. al., experienced many changes and alterations during their formative years so the grand lesson learned from such places seems to be that it takes time to develop the correct "feel" of the golf course. The lesson learned? The membership of the club must be willing to embrace change and follow their visionaries in charge of the design? How many architects actually revise their courses to the extent that Ross did with Pinehurst #2 or Flynn/Wilson did wit Merion East?

I think we need to look a bit more within the margins for true case studies. My list (with reasoning):

Jeffersonville Golf Club West Norriton, PA:
A Donald Ross design, most likely constructed with significant design input from J.B. McGovern and renovated/restored by Ron Prichard from 2000-2001. The course is a study in angles, variance in hole length, hazard size/location and green contouring. Each Par 3 presents a different challenge, from the short, well-guarded, postage stamp 4th hole where the short side is a short route to a double bogey to the long 15th where a putt below the hole requires a Sherpa to reach.

The last description leads me to the green contouring. Jeffersonville is very much a study in how green can be contoured to keep interest at speeds under 10 feet with the Stimpmeter. At no other course can I recall having a foot of break on putts shorter than 6 feet within reason, but Jeffersonville offers such challenge.

Jeffersonville also features two Par 5 holes in the 550+ range, where the lines of play vary the yardage by +/-50 yards. These angles are presented by integrated bunkering and OB in such a way to allow the golfer to avoid, but tempting the golfer to challenge.

Perhaps most appealing about The Jeff are the stable of par 4s which range from the short/drivable 3rd to the long 13th, which is almost categorically the favorite of my golf companions.

Any reasonably preserved Alex Findlay design
The Old Course: St. Andrews
Bethpage State Park
World Woods

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2008, 06:22:02 PM »
Royal Melbourne West/East/Composite
Thank you, Jim. I couldn't believe it took so long for anyone to mention Royal Melbourne. Some of you guys need to get out more. ;D

1. TOC - Where it all began.
2. North Berwick (West) - Diagonal lines & hazards.
3. NGLA - The formulation of strategy.
4. Oakmont - Greatness on clay & a study in penal design.
5. Royal Melbourne (West) - A study in strategy.

Chris Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2008, 06:24:04 PM »
If architects studied the Paul Daley Scottish golf quadrilateral: TOC, North Berwick, Prestwick, Cruden Bay; I'm convinced they'd build much better courses than if they studied the American classics.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 07:17:19 PM by Chris Kane »

Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2008, 07:33:53 PM »
I'm not fully convinced studying these courses (all the great ones listed) would yield better work for every architect, potential architect or closet potential architect. If it were true... Why has so much crap been built in the last 87 1/2 years?
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2008, 07:39:42 PM »
I'm not fully convinced studying these courses (all the great ones listed) would yield better work for every architect, potential architect or closet potential architect. If it were true... Why has so much crap been built in the last 87 1/2 years?
How many architects actually study the great courses?

I know (and know of) quite a few architects that haven't seen many (or any) of these courses.

Chip Gaskins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2008, 08:58:23 PM »
St. Andrews - Greens, angles and everything else!
Ballybunion - How to build a great course in big dunes without a backhoe
Pine Valley - Penal yet wide, perfect use of waste areas
San Francisco - How to use bunkers to frame wide open spaces
Wild Horse - How to get it exactly right with little

Riviera - would probably make the list though I have not played it

Honorable Mentions
Prairie Dunes - How to make a perfect set of green complexes
TPC Sawgrass - How you can actually make a swamp play remotely firm and fast
Prestwick - How endearing quirk can be
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 09:35:24 PM by Chip Gaskins »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2008, 09:18:32 PM »
George,

I would recommend traveling to Melbourne and spending time at Kingston Heath. There you will find a small piece of property that is not especially well endowed with interesting topography. But, it is amazing what was accomplished with so little. The green complexes and bunkering are especially worthy of study. Also, Kingston Heath may be the perfect course to be able to walk for the man who gets up there in age.

Tim Weiman

Kevin Pallier

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2008, 10:50:07 PM »
Of all that I've seen to date - I'll say 3 stand out for me at present:

TOC - and all it's subtilties
Nth Berwick - it's variety
Royal Melbourne (Composite) - strategic lines (incl. also greens and bunkers)

I could add say a Dornoch to the list (re: recovery shots) or NSW (re: routing) but I'd like to try to see if (hopefully in my lifetime ?) NGLA / Merion / Pine Valley / Cypress Point should be added to the mix.

Jim Nugent

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #40 on: October 08, 2008, 01:37:59 AM »

Forest Park -- The future of golf. A thoughtful course that is well-maintained literally in the center of a city with reasonable greens fees. The setting and architecture are commendable.

Forest Park in St. Louis? 

Thomas MacWood

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2008, 07:02:30 AM »
Many years ago Golf Magazine asked this question, relating to America, to Doak, Dye and a third person who can't remember. They came up with 11 courses. ANGC, Chicago, The Country Club, Garden City, Merion, National, Oakmont, Pinehurst #2, Riviera, Shinnecock and Shoreacres. Not a single course built after WWII. Sand Hills and The Golf Club are two modern courses that are must studies IMO.


Adam Clayman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2008, 08:38:04 AM »
Lawsonia. If only to learn how to create exit strategies.
"It's unbelievable how much you don't know about the game you've been playing your whole life." - Mickey Mantle

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2008, 08:56:01 AM »
The Old Course - strategy and contours
North Berwick - fun
Garden City - simplicity
Oakmont - difficulty
Royal Melbourne - scale and beauty

Scott Stearns

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2008, 10:10:01 AM »
TOC
Garden City/Myopia
NGLA
Oakmont
Cypress
The Golf Club

i think these are in rough order of construction

Debate you whether TPC Stadium or The Golf Club is the better for examining Pete Dye's work.

name another course built bet 1960-1982 that is significant in the evolution of architecture

Kirk Gill

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2008, 12:43:29 PM »
Huge surprise that the lists of Must Study courses tend to closely approximate the lists of the best courses in the world. Understandable, particularly if you're just picking five.

What about five courses that aren't going to make Top 100 lists (or perhaps barely squeak in) that will reward the budding architect with insights or knowledge that either wouldn't be found at the "greats," or might be overshadowed by all the other great stuff lurking about? I'm certainly no archie, and I'm just speculating, but........

For one, if you're forward-thinking, you'd need to look at courses that have been successfully built on land that is either poorly suited for golf or just not golf-friendly, since it's more likely that you're going to see that kind of land than what the GA guys got to play with. Engh's Sanctuary, for example, or the Rawls Course.

Two, are you looking to work globally, or perhaps start in a particular locality? If you're hoping to start close to home, what are traits that the successful local courses share? And if you're looking globally, let's say in the far east, you'd want to study the best tropical courses. And tastes may be different in a foreign land. What are the clients looking for over there? And if you don't care for the kind of architecture that seems to be selling, is there a way to inject some of the characteristics you think you want into the kind of course you think THEY want?

Or, are you just effing BRILLIANT, and will just get muddled up with other peoples' thoughts if you go around studying courses? Maybe five courses are just too damn many to have to study.

Good luck with that.
"After all, we're not communists."
                             -Don Barzini

Jeff_Stettner

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #46 on: October 08, 2008, 01:11:14 PM »

Forest Park -- The future of golf. A thoughtful course that is well-maintained literally in the center of a city with reasonable greens fees. The setting and architecture are commendable.

Forest Park in St. Louis? 

You bet.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #47 on: October 08, 2008, 05:48:59 PM »
Many years ago Golf Magazine asked this question, relating to America, to Doak, Dye and a third person who can't remember. They came up with 11 courses. ANGC, Chicago, The Country Club, Garden City, Merion, National, Oakmont, Pinehurst #2, Riviera, Shinnecock and Shoreacres. Not a single course built after WWII. Sand Hills and The Golf Club are two modern courses that are must studies IMO.



See...Tom Doak agrees...TCC-Brookline.

I honestly think that TCC Brookline is the The Old Course of America. The first layout had no designer other than a few members, and the course is a direct result of the land it sits on.


Jeff-

I understand your point about Forest Park in STL...but is that the best example? Would / Could you include courses built on landfills then?
H.P.S.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #48 on: October 08, 2008, 06:10:46 PM »
If architects studies the Paul Daley Scottish golf quadrilateral: TOC, North Berwick, Prestwick, Cruden Bay; I'm convinced they'd build much better courses than if they studied the American classics.

This is a pretty interesting observation, one worthy of its own thread, really, but I'll simply say this: I'd guess most architects have at least played these courses; is it apparent?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Andrew Summerell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #49 on: October 08, 2008, 06:53:36 PM »
If architects studies the Paul Daley Scottish golf quadrilateral: TOC, North Berwick, Prestwick, Cruden Bay; I'm convinced they'd build much better courses than if they studied the American classics.

This is a pretty interesting observation, one worthy of its own thread, really, but I'll simply say this: I'd guess most architects have at least played these courses; is it apparent?
George, I think you would be surprised how few architects have play all these courses.

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