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George Pazin

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List 5 must study courses
« on: October 07, 2008, 12:47:04 PM »
I recall reading in The World Atlas of Golf, in the Seminole section, that awhile ago, someone polled a handful of architects and asked them to list their 5 golf courses that every architect should see and study (or something like that). Seminole was the only course named by each of those polled.

What are yours?

I haven't seen enough to say, other than the obvious one, but I will say I think I learn about gca each and every time someone posts their thoughts on Shinnecock and Pine Valley.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

David Whitmer

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2008, 01:10:54 PM »
Pine Valley
Cypress Point
Pinehurst #2
Oakmont
National Golf Links
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Brad Tufts

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2008, 01:16:01 PM »
The Old Course, has effected everything that has come after it.

Myopia, the original great course in the US, lay of the land design.

NGLA, bringing the UK greats to America.

Cypress Point, for great aesthetical design.

Pinehurst #2?....for building something out of a nothing landscape?

If I included something modern, i might say Sand Hills or Ballyneal or Pac Dunes, but they are distant grandchildren of the UK greats.  I'm struggling to find something modern and great that was also groundbreaking.  Perhaps something that was built only through the availability of earthmoving equipment?



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wsmorrison

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2008, 01:18:42 PM »
American Courses

Shinnecock Hills--beauty, use of angles, use of natural features, recovery demands

Pine Valley--width does not equate to easy, shot testing and aerial demands and ground options, Maxwell's 9th green

Merion--enjoyable difficulty in a small package, shot testing and aerial demands and ground options

Indian Creek--making man-made look natural, angles, use of perspective and approach shot demands

Oakmont--penal can be fun

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Deucie Bies

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2008, 01:22:43 PM »
Cypress Point
Shinnecock
Oakmont
Pine Valley
San Francisco Golf Club
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Chris_Clouser

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2008, 01:23:22 PM »
George,

I think Merion was also included with Seminole in that everyone responded with it.

To me it would depend on what you were wanting to study.

If you wanted to study landmarks in design you would probably have to start with The Old Course and then have something that exemplified modern design like a TPC at Sawgrass with three others sprinkled in between.  

I am curious though about Cypress Point.  I would not even dare to challenge the notion that it is an excellent course and worthy of a visit.  But what would somene gather from the other experience that they wouldn't at say the Valley Club or Pasatiempo, other Mackenzie layouts, other than the fact that the ocean is there on three holes.  

Not trying to stir up anything or be critical of the course, but just curious about what can be learned from what exists today or what was so revolutionary about it.  
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Chuck Brown

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2008, 01:27:13 PM »
1.  The Old Course
2.  Prestwick
3.  Royal Dornoch
4.  The National, or Yale
5.  The Old Course, again, to study what you might have missed the first time.

(My putting TOC on the list twice comes at the expense of Merion, which must be on the list, which is why the list must be six, and not five... ;D  )

6.  Merion
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Robert Emmons

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2008, 01:30:30 PM »
NGLA
Highland Links
Merion
Pinehurst # 2
Oakmont

add a modern 5

Sand Hills
Shadow Creek
Sebonac
Pacific Dunes
TPC Sawgrass
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Peter Pallotta

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2008, 01:40:36 PM »
George - just from what I've read here, and just to add a couple of courses that might not be mentioned (though all those listed so far seem spot on):

I'd say Peachtree, to see what RTJ's initial post-war style looked and played like. And I'd say TPC Sawgrass, to see how Dye created strategic interest and challenge wholesale, out of nothing. 

Peter
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Anthony Gray

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 01:45:55 PM »
   Old Course      obvious reasons
   Pine Valley       no weak holes
   Whistling Straits    making something from nothing and routing
   Cruden Bay      reminder golf is ment to be fun
   Knob North      risk/reward off the tee
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wsmorrison

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 01:49:10 PM »
Scotland and England

The Old Course
Huntercombe
Royal St. George's
Prestwick
Royal Dornoch
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Jay Flemma

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2008, 01:53:42 PM »
Old Course, NGLA, Oakmont (greens), Crystal Downs, Garden City GC,

Sleepers:  Pac Dunes, Bulls Bay, Oklahoma City Golf and Country Club, Black Mesa, ANGC (pre-Fazio)
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Jeff_Stettner

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2008, 02:00:03 PM »
Sandpines
Lake Las Vegas Weiskopf
Furry Creek
San Francisco Golf Club
Norman K. Probstein Golf Course at Forest Park
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Bill_McBride

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2008, 02:02:17 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Stettner on October 07, 2008, 02:00:03 PM
Sandpines
Lake Las Vegas Weiskopf
Furry Creek
San Francisco Golf Club
Norman K. Probstein Golf Course at Forest Park

Furry Creek - you dog!  :o :o ::) ::)
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Bill_McBride

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 02:05:07 PM »
The Old Course - the basis for everything (good) that followed

North Berwick West Links - the birthplace of quirk  (haven't played Prestwick)

Oakmont - fall away greens, using the natural topography

National Golf Links - how CBM brought golf to America

Pacific Dunes - modern evocation of classic themes
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Sean_A

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #15 on: October 07, 2008, 02:07:12 PM »
Five is not enough and I haven't seen enough to list a definitive five, but here goes:

Huntercombe - a great insight into turn of the century gentle lay of the land architecture mixed with some design flair.

Pennard - yes, I would include this as a great example of a raw, let nature dictate it links.  It doesn't need to be anymore complicated than this to entertain.

TOC

Merion - a wonderful example of championship golf without resorting to incredible length and still relying on old time grade level architecture.  It was such a cool thing to see such a brilliant mix of styles pulled together so well. 

Pinehurst - its not my favourite place, but the concept of defending the course at the greens is no where better exemplified in a championship layout then here.  Pinehurst is also unusual for a championship course in that if there was a place a bogey player can get around without headaches - this is it.

St Georges Hill - I have to pick one heathland course which demonstrates how far Colt pushed design concepts in a few short years after Sunningdale/Huntercombe.

Call it a bakers half dozen.

Ciao
« Last Edit: October 07, 2008, 02:10:23 PM by Sean Arble »
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Deucie Bies

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2008, 02:13:55 PM »
Instead of five courses, who are the five architects that you would want to study?  It is tough, especially considering that Crump and Fownes only did one course each.
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PCCraig

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2008, 02:25:46 PM »
No mention of TCC - Brookline?
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H.P.S.

George Pazin

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #18 on: October 07, 2008, 02:37:21 PM »
Quote from: Chris_Clouser on October 07, 2008, 01:23:22 PM
George,

I think Merion was also included with Seminole in that everyone responded with it.

Yeah, I was thinking back about the piece on Seminole while on a bank run, and I think it was actually that a number of architects were polled, and only 5 courses appeared on everyone's ballot, among them Merion and Seminole. I'll have to check my copy tonight.
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Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom Huckaby

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #19 on: October 07, 2008, 02:39:27 PM »
Are the only courses worth study all of these great ones?

I'd think studying what went wrong might be worth one's time also.  How can you know greatness if you don't also recognize crap?

So to that end... for a study in pace of play, or lack thereof... you all need to get to Santa Teresa GC, San Jose, CA.  Study and report as to what went wrong.  Why does this seemingly simple course take 6 hours to play?

TH
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Jeff_Stettner

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #20 on: October 07, 2008, 02:48:11 PM »
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on October 07, 2008, 02:39:27 PM
Are the only courses worth study all of these great ones?


See my post above.
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Tom Huckaby

Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2008, 02:49:29 PM »
Quote from: Jeff_Stettner on October 07, 2008, 02:48:11 PM
Quote from: Tom Huckaby on October 07, 2008, 02:39:27 PM
Are the only courses worth study all of these great ones?


See my post above.

Aha!
The only one I recognize as not great though is perhaps Sandpines.  And some like that...

But I am glad I am not the only one thinking this way anyway.

TH
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Bill Shamleffer

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #22 on: October 07, 2008, 02:56:08 PM »
In thinking of how many American architects have studies the courses in the UK (from CBM to Dye, and many others), one must begin in the UK

1. St. Andrews
2. Prestwick
3. Muirfield
4. Sunningdale (or some other classic heath land course)
5. and then one more of the UK greats, perhaps Royal Country Down


Then one may consider adding 5 courses from America or elsewhere.  Among American course I think would be interesting to study for the architectural knowledge one could gain I would consider the following:

1. NGLA
2. Pine Valley
3. Prairie Dunes Country Club
4. Peachtree (for the early work of RTJ)
5. Harbour Town

If I could add a few more, I would want to add Oakmont (the classic of penal designs), Winged Foot (a classic US tree-lined championship course), Pinehurst (just for the greens & their surroundings), Forest Highlands Golf Club (to study a desert course), and finally to see how MacKenzie's mind worked a visit to Pasatiempo (or better yet to Royal Melbourne)
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“The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's the way to bet.”  Damon Runyon

Garland Bayley

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #23 on: October 07, 2008, 02:58:46 PM »
Interesting that this thread should come up at the time that I returned to Astoria CC. I would nominate Astoria as a course architects should see. An architect's education would not be complete until the had seen this extreme of minimalism that yielded something totally unique and cherished.

In the past I have mentioned the repetition of the tunnels. However, after this trip played in the wind, I realized that  although superficially the holes seem the same, when you consider, for example, one is played 420 yards into the prevailing wind and the other is played 260 yards with the prevailing wind, they are completely different holes evoking completely different strategic options.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Phil Benedict

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Re: List 5 must study courses
« Reply #24 on: October 07, 2008, 03:02:45 PM »
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the pre-Hootie Augusta National.  Wide open course with relatively few bunkers that still managed to challenge the world's best year in and year out. 
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