Springdale GC (Princeton, NJ) - 15th Hole

[Max Schechter]

Before I launch into the body of the topic, allow me to introduce myself. I am a senior at Princeton University and a co-captain of the men's golf team. I started playing at the age of 9 and spent my childhood playing at Rancho Santa Fe GC outside of San Diego, CA. Between junior tournaments and my time on the team at Princeton, I have been fortunate enough to play many of the best golf courses this nation has to offer, and a few overseas as well. As a native San Diegan, it has been great to see the tracks of the northeast, especially given their contrast in style to those in the southwest that I grew up playing.

I'd like to thank everybody on this board for their contributions to my education in the world of golf course architecture. Since my discovery of this site, I have started to look at the game in a whole new way. I hope that I will be able to contribute in some way to this board in the future.

So, without further ado, on to my desired topic of discussion - the 15th hole at Springdale GC. Springdale, the private club that sits on Princeton University property, is a short but enjoyable course crammed onto a very small site of around 100 acres. My understanding is that William Flynn was responsible for the routing, which at one point features eight parallel fairways according to an aerial view. As expected, the course features a host of charming short par fours that tempt the player to be aggressive (and consequently piss off our coach).

The most interesting hole on the course to me is the 15th hole, which was the 17th hole before the use of the new clubhouse changed the order. From the back tees, it is listed as 404 yards and the fairway sits at a 45 degree angle to the tee box. Large trees line the right side of the tee and the fairway as does a small creek, forcing the player interested in pulling driver to hit a huge cut to keep from going through the fairway. The other option is to lay up short and left, leaving the player a longer approach shot from a more pronounced side hill lie due to the extreme cant of this part of the fairway. (Note: I tried to include an aerial view but I had some trouble. If somebody could help me that'd be great)

However, I think that these trees that force the player to shape the ball make the hole easier for the better player. My hypothesis is that if the trees were not there (and if playing down the parallel fairway to the right were not an option), the more aggressive player would drop the left to right shot shop in favor of aiming further right and to try to cut off too much, bringing the creek more into play. As it is now, the trees force a safer shot - one that starts away from trouble and moves towards it.

What do you think about this assertion? How do you feel tree removal would affect the hole?

[wsmorrison]

Max,

Not much of the routing was changed by Flynn when he redesigned the existing course.  Here is an early map of the course prior to Flynn's work.   I took the photo of while the drawing was still on the wall of the old clubhouse.  I haven't seen much of the new clubhouse, but it may well be somewhere in there.



Here is Flynn's drawing of the former 17th, an excellent hole

[Max Schechter]

Thank you for your response and the pictures, Wayne. The next time I am in the clubhouse, I will take a look around for those drawings. It appears that the trees were much less of a factor in the original design and that maybe a few were added between the two holes.

Did Hugh Wilson have any involvement in the original course to your knowledge?

[Anthony Fowler]

Max, I am excited to see you on board!  Has the cold weather been as bad to your game as it has to mine?  I am still learning how to hit those 150 yard 4 irons.  It's great to hear from you, and I hope we can catch up offline.  I'd love to come down that way to pay you a visit.  Maybe I can see the 15th hole for myself one of these days.  I'll also look forward reading all your posts.

[wsmorrison]

Max,

I went to the Princeton library and searched the archives related to the golf course.  There was very little to consider regarding the architecture and no mention of Hugh Wilson's involvement.  I believe he was on the green committee while a student.  If Wilson was alive when Flynn was working on Springdale (1928), I'm sure he would have been involved.  Wilson and Flynn collaborated at Merion East, Merion West, Marble Hall (now Green Valley), Pine Valley and Kittansett.  It is possible that Flynn helped out at Cobb's Creek, at least from an agronomic perspective.

By the way,

GO PENN!   

[Max Schechter]

Anthony - I appreciate your enthusiasm and would be happy to join you for a round at Springdale. It is not the best course in Princeton but it possesses a certain charm and forgiveness that make for enjoyable rounds time after time. My game has undergone quite a few changes since heading east, but there are a number of contributing factors beyond the geography and climate. Sure I play fewer rounds every year due to the weather, but I think being taken out of the highly competitive atmosphere in SoCal junior golf has had a detrimental effect on my game. However, I am a much smarter player now and my feeling is that the different style of courses may have contributed to this, or maybe I'm just older and wiser. In any event, I'd love to connect.


Wayne - A search of this discussion group's topics appear to concur with your statements. A reply on one of the threads made mention of Wilson being involved with the construction of the original course (when it was nine holes) but there is not much elaboration on the subject. I'll see what information I can dig up from the staff. As for the last line of your post, I refuse to dignify it with any further comment.

[Mike_Cirba]

As Wayne mentioned, Hugh Wilson was on the Green Committee while this course was being originally constructed circa 1902.   I haven't seen anything that would indicate a design role, but he certainly had a role in getting the course in play.   I shouldn't speak without looking it up again, but I believe the design was Willie Dunn's, later modified significantly (as far as hole internals) by William Flynn.

 

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne
Is there a date on that map for the proposed golf course?

[wsmorrison]

No, Tom there isn't.  I assume it is the plan for the course prior to Flynn.  My notes are at home, so I cannot refer to them till later today.

[JESII]

Max,

I played Springdale a few times in the mid-90's while playing for Temple. We would come up for your spring tournament and I really liked the course. How did the re-routing change the course? Did they simply start play on #3? Or were there other changes?

Either way, to your questions...I think the hole would be really attractive without all (or at least most) of the internal trees as the creek would look great from the tee, and no doubt would tempt the majority of players into that direction, but it would also effectively shorten the hole by a huge amount, no? I think the hole would very possibly be a better hole without the trees, but I strongly disagree that it would be more difficult in terms of scoring.

[Max Schechter]

JES II - I did not play the old routing enough to have a strong opinion on how it has changed the course. If anything, it makes for a tougher start and middle of the round, but a soft finish. The order of the holes changed, but the makeup of each nine remains the same. The new #1 is the old #5, the sharp dogleg left par 4. From there, the order is the old #6-9 followed by the old #1-3. The first hole on the back nine is now the old #12 and is succeeded in the past order until the old #18. The course now finishes with the par 5 #10 and a short par 4, formerly #11.

There is talk amongst the membership of extending the final hole back 30-40 yards as there is now a lot of empty space between the 18th green and the clubhouse. However, this will require the current #10 tee to be moved left for safety's sake. Also, the walk from #9 green to #10 tee, already a lengthy one, will become even longer.

The new clubhouse and practice facilities are great and have provided us with a much better place to improve our games. One thing that I think the members miss is the atmosphere of the old clubhouse patio. From there, you could sit in an Adirondack chair, have a drink and see play on the old 9th and 18th greens and 1st and 10th tees. The current clubhouse is set so far back from the course that this element is lost.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I agree that the hole would be made shorter, bringing more 3s into play, but I also think it would bring more 6s into play as well since the water would be a more prevalent hazard. The landing area would be less pitched though, so maybe a bit of the strategic element of the hole would be removed.

Another interesting thing about the current state of the 15th hole is its effect on the next tee shot. The 16th hole is one of the relatively tighter drives at Springdale due to the bunkers in the landing area, the trees left and the residential college encroaching on the right. Granted, the out of bounds on the right is not that close, but the stigma of hitting your tee shot onto a lawn of sunbathing co-eds and memories of the huge cut that you had to hit on the last tee box have a way of messing with your mind. Pretty interesting that one of the few holes where right is dead immediately follows after the only hole where you have to hit it dead right.

[Thomas MacWood]

That original plan is fascinating. The merged fairways, a double green, the bizarre looking (and huge) 18th green, and the variety of bunkers (including some large diagonal hazards) add up to a very creative design. I've seen some reports that GB Lambert laid out the course in 1915. I believe he was a successful businessman. I've also seen the course listed with other courses in an advertisement for the Cleveland Tractor Co. The majority of the courses listed in that ad were Herbert Strong designs. I would not be surprised if Strong was involved.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'm really curious as well to hear the date of that early drawing.

It certainly shows a level of sophistication that is rather remarkable for the early period.

[JESII]

Interestingly, Mike, I thought the opposite...that the drawing was pretty rough and non-specific...although I was not putting it into the context of time. It just looked like a general idea of where each hole would go and the yardages.

[Mike_Cirba]

Interestingly, Mike, I thought the opposite...that the drawing was pretty rough and non-specific...although I was not putting it into the context of time. It just looked like a general idea of where each hole would go and the yardages.

Jim,

If that map is prior to 1910 or so it's quite sophisticated.

Most maps from that period are simply strewn with cross bunkers, and the bunkering of this course seems much more strategic.

The shared fairways and double greens also exhibit a level of sophistication that I wouldn't have expected.

I'm just not sure where this Lambert fellow that Tom MacWood mentioned earned his stripes.   

[wsmorrison]

It appears that the original 1895 9-hole course, built by alumni, faculty and undergraduates was expanded into an 18-hole course designed by Willie Dunn, which opened for play in March 1902.  This Stockton Woods course was abandoned in favor of a new course laid out and constructed by Gerald B. Lambert and opened on June 1, 1915.  My guess is that the map I posted relates to the Lambert design in the mid 1910s. 

There is little documentation on this course.  I've not yet come across anything mentioning the assistance of a professional architect. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Waybe

Do you know if the Lambert course was built on a different site than the Dunn course?

[wsmorrison]

Mike,

The original 1895 course, improved in 1897, was built on land owned by Bayard Stockton near Bayard Lane.  The Dunn course was built on a different site, part of 250 acres purchased by Princeton Golf Club from Richard Stockton between Mercer Street and the canal.  In May 1914 it was reported that an expert was engaged to build a new nine holes.  I don't think this 9-hole course was ever built but rather the existing course redesigned and opened for play on June of the following year.  As I was researching Flynn's role in the 1928 redesign of this 1915 course, I didn't delve too deeply in earlier iterations of Princeton's golf courses.

[Mike_Cirba]

Thanks, Wayne.   

I think whenever this early map was drawn it shows a pretty sharp departure from some of the more geometric and penal models that preceeded it.