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Matt_Ward

Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« on: October 05, 2008, 11:07:23 PM »
Had the pleasure this past weekend to be at Lansdowne GC in Leesburg, VA and my return there was the first time I had been there since 1992.

Originally the RTJ Course was the first 18 holes on property and while the original 18 was enjoyable -- it was primarily for me nothing more than rudimentary golf meant to compliment the sheer number of people using the facility as a convenient meeting place for the wide ranging number of businesses and companies that use the facility as a prime gathering spot for meetings and the like.

About three years ago the facility added another 18 holes -- designed by Greg Norman. Unlike the RTJ course, the Norman layout is located alongside the Potomac River and is in the natural flood plain -- roughly 250 feet below the grade of where the actual hotel sits.

What amazed me about Lansdowne is the move to have a golf component that is bit beyond the "golf as another activity" to one that is quite fun.

Credit to the facility in having RTJ come back and provide two completely new holes to the original 18 -- the new 14th (418 yards) and 15th (391 yards) replace the former 17th (393 yards) and 18th (401 yards). The former two holes were eliminated so that a completely new driving range could be built.

The new additional holes are nicely done -- especially the dog-leg left downhill par-4 14th. The closing stretch of holes at RTJ -- have now been bumped back two holes in their sequence -- now the 16th hole plays as the closer and it's one of the best holes at the facility. The par-4 plays uphill and turns left in the drive zone -- you need to avoid bunkers to the far right but the close proximity of the stream that runs up the entire left side is a big time item to keep away from at all times. The green is elevated a full one or two clubs more from the botton of the fairway and is nicely contoured to bring your round to a fine conclusion.

I am not a fan of the first seven holes of the RTJ course -- they are merely low level and quite drab. It's at the 8th hole that the real journey begins for the rest of the round.

The Norman Course sports over 7,300 yards from the tips and comes in with a 75.7 CR and 141 slope from the tips -- one of the highest for courses in the Mid-Atlantic region.

The issue with the Norman Course is that it requires a good level of dexterity in driving the ball on just about all of the holes encountered. Truthfully, I was put off by the flat and featureless property but Norman and his team did well in not overdoing the aspects of man-made insertions that would have clearly looked like they were shipped in to boost the visual appeal.

One other note -- the Norman Course does have a fall-off areas on a number of holes and they do provide closely mown areas where approaches that are too strong or pushed / pulled will flow further away from the putting surface. It's neat touch and it avoids the sleep-a-thon notion of surrounding each green with high rough that only forces the player to escape with one main option in operation.

Now, most of the layout generally flows in one basic direction as holes parallel the River and then move back in the opposite direction. The lone exception being the stretch of the 13th through 15th holes.

The real drawback with the Norman Course is the preposterous claim that the final four holes represent the "Hardest Mile in Golf" (I guess someone must have forgotten to alert Oakmont, Carnoustie or any other top tier layout in regards to the Leesburg layout.

The holes are ...

15th hole / 408 yards

Straight as an arrow with water to the right and in play off the drive zone. The green is behind a section of waterway that forms a frontal creek to be carried. The fairway is quite wide and the green fairly pedestrian.

16th hole / 442 yards

Claimed to be a cape hole but the reality is that the hole simply stay straight with H20 all the way down the right side. There is little strategic advantage if you drive the ball close to the right because the green can handle approaches from either side.

17th hole / 663 yards

If a plane overshoot Dulles you can be sure they have enough room to land just about any plane on this hole.

Unfortunately, beyond the length component I didn't see anything that again resembled some form of real strategic consequence. Yes, the length is there but little else.

18th hole / 247 yards

If you want good old fashioned tough as nails finishers the 18th at the Norman Course can provide that. It's nearly all carry over water with a sliver of bailout area that has been created to give the illusion of some sort of option away from the H20.

The hole is incredibly hard because it calls upon a demanding carry that invariably will mean a healthy ball supply for the facility.

Lansdowne has tried to hype the Norman Course and there are a few holes of note there -- the long 2nd is well done and the par-5 that follows is extremely solid because of the way the drive zone works off wetlands tha hug the left hand side of the hole.

I was pleasantly surprised to see the new changes to the RTJ course and it has increased the fun of playing it -- once you hold your nose and get by the first seven holes.

No doubt the facility has made a major investment in a broad range of catgeories (a new spa is now open, to name just one thing) and Lansdowne is clearly interested in competing with the likes of the other top tier facilities but Norman has certainly done better with other layouts that I have played by his hand. No doubt the land presented limitations and in spots the Norman team did well. I just still get a kick out of the desire to label the last four holes. In so many ways -- it's the holes that get little fanfare that are really the ones to take notice of when there.



 


Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2008, 05:25:09 AM »
Matt - I wrote a piece for GS about the Norman Course when it opened.  The main turn off for me is that nearly every holes has red stakes along or around it.  One hole (midway through the frontside) has red stakes around the entire hole.  Kinda goofy to me. 

I very much agree with you on all you say about the RTJ course.  The redone finish is much better than before.

JC

Matt_Ward

Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2008, 08:42:05 AM »
Jonathan:

My issue is that often times architects must make do with sites that don't lend themselves to the best of situations.

Norman and his team did as good as can be with the limited range of options for such a squished site. I can only imagine when the Potomac decides to rise during massive storms that the golf course will be severely impacted with run-off waters and the like.

In regards to the stakes -- I didn't find that to be much of an issue -- there's plenty of width but little in terms of differentiation in so many cases. I like the chipping areas and I think the driving dimension is quite strong -- the main strength of the layout.

If one could combine some all-star 18 between the two courses that would make for a much better day. Possibly the entire back nine of RTJ -- there is cross point to the 3rd hole at Norman and you could have the very demanding 2nd at Norman being the finishing hole -- it's quite close to the clubhouse -- no doubt, this comment is purely wishful thinking.

Matt_Ward

Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2008, 06:03:33 PM »
Jonathan, et al:

Be curious to see what courses are listed as the best public options within 30 miles of the nation's capital.

I like the Norman layout but it does have limitations because of the forced situation with the site it has.

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 08:57:56 PM »
Matt I only played the course once and that was the year it opened so the course is not really fresh in my memory.  I really disliked it.  I like a course that demands good driving because it is one of my strengths, but I found it too exacting.  I also thought that too many par fours played the same length and the shots into the greens were too similar.  It was hard as hell but absolutely no fun and way too difficult for a resort.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2008, 01:39:30 AM by Tommy Williamsen »
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2008, 08:59:23 PM »
Jonathan, et al:

Be curious to see what courses are listed as the best public options within 30 miles of the nation's capital.

I like the Norman layout but it does have limitations because of the forced situation with the site it has.

Matt --

There have been several discussions of the DC area's lack of great golf courses, including this one: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35522.0.html.

I think the general consensus is that DC has no/few examples of world class (e.g., top 100) courses, and that the best in the area are private.  On the public side, DC is dominated by mediocre/unnoteworthy munis and CCFADs with weekend rates of $80-110.  Many of the CCFADS are good to very good, but rarely are they worth the combination of the cost and time to play (rounds here are very slow on the weekends, and often during the week as well).  Many of these courses were not designed for walking either.

As both Ran and Doak have mentioned, DC is possibly the worst climate for growing gof turf in the country, so that hurts our cause as well. :-)

I've never played Lansdowne, in part because no one I know has raved about it enough for me to spend the $$$ they're asking for there.  

That said, there are several public courses in our area that are worthy of your time and money.  To my mind, these include:

    * Laurel Hill – a very nice new muni by Bill Love built on the old Lorton Prison grounds, it’s not very walkable and it's priced/operated like a CCFAD.  But that shouldn't detract from the outstanding routing and many wonderful golf holes.  
    * Glenn Dale – a mid-50s George Cobb course, see threads: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=13885;start=msg236852#msg236852 and http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=21005;start=msg379597
    * Westfields - a "Fred Couples" CCFAD that is not bordered by any homes
    * Twin Lakes -- the muni where I keep my handicap, and down the street from Westfields.  Two 18-hole layouts: the newer Oaks is more challenging and interesting, and plays a little tighter; the Lakes is more open but the greens are far less interesting.  The Lakes is perfect for the bogey or worse golfer.  Conditioning can be an issue, but the price is right and they always allow walking (most CCFADs in the DC area don't allow walking on a weekend morning).  I've written about the Oaks course here before without anyone else commenting; I think it's incorrectly viewed as just another average muni.

Here's what I wrote previously about the Oaks:

I find that the Oaks offers the best combination of balanced holes, challenging but fair (especially for the mid handicapper like myself), decent pace of play (the Lakes tends to get a lower quality of golfer and therefore play slower), walkable, and attractive (no surrounding homes) that's within 30-40 minutes of where I live.  The design is straight forward, with the occasional blind shot and bit of deception; the fairways are wide but trouble happens if you miss them by much (the Oaks is a fair title -- there are many heavily treed areas with thick underbrush).  Greens have some slope, but putts that don't have an obvious big swing due tend to break less than you will read; these subtle breaks can make it tough for the first timer to score well.  The course is not the toughest for a low handicapper, but quite difficult for the mid or high handicapper.  The white tees ratings are 70.7/135 for 6316 yards (from the tips it plays 6700 yards witrh ratings of 72.5/137).

In the good-but-overrated/not-worth-the-money-or-effort category:

    * Raspberry Falls
    * Stonewall (you can see RTJ #18 from this course, I forget which hole)
    * Augustine

In the category of interesting courses outside the 30-mile radius are two courses in the VA Blue Ridge and two near Frederick, MD:

    * Shenandoah Valley Golf Club  
    * Virginia National
    * Whiskey Creek
    * Musket Ridge

My favorite place to play in the DC  area is Shenandoah Valley GC, considering the price (highest fee is $50 on a weekend morning, as little as $12 to walk after 2 PM Mon-Thrs), good conditioning, generally a fast pace of play, a friendly staff, and the course itself: mountain-style course, no water hazards, no fairway bunkers, but tight, rolling fairways, smallish greens on the old 18 (larger greens on the newest 9), and a nice routing that provides variety. Plenty walkable unless it’s very hot and humid.  May not be challenging enough for a very low handicapper, but it should provide enough interest for anyone else.

I haven't played every public course of note in the DC area; by reputation, PB Dye and Blue Ridge Shadows appear to be worth a look (and both are on my to-do list).

rboyce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2008, 09:38:53 PM »
I agree that the DC area is somewhat lacking for interesting golf.

In contrast, this past weekend I was in Fayetteville, NC for my wife's reunion. The thrown together at the last minute golf was at a public course on Fort Bragg. Turned out to be a Donald Ross which was fun and interesting and in decent shape for 32 bucks including cart - marshall said a membership was 60 per month. Reunion itself was at a private club - that also turned out to be a Donald Ross. Geez.


Matt_Ward

Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2008, 12:28:29 PM »
Jimmy C:

No doubt the general weather pattern throughout the Mason Dixon line can be quite difficult for any superintendent in this region.

The ability to handle the stresses that come with such weather patterns can play havoc with courses that are in between a pure bent and pure bermuda formula.

Jimmy, I've played a good smattering of courses you mentioned but I would recommend a round at P.B. Dye when time allows. Unfortunately, I hear that plenty of what was designed there originally was changed for a whole lot of reasons and frankly the style and nature of the original course is what set it apart from being a run-of-the-mill CCFAD course.

I agree w you that so much of the CCFAD menu of public courses in the DC area are merely high priced layouts with little character and differentiation in terms of architectural quality. Your listing contained a number of the ones I have played and there's little reason for me or anyone else for that matter to go there and believe they will have an experience of real quality.


Tommy W:

Help me out -- you said, "I have not played the Norman course since it opened but I really disliked it."

Have you played the Norman course at Lansdowne or not ? If you have not then how do you draw the conclusion that you "really disliked it." Is that conclusion based solely on walking the grounds?

Please explain.

Rob_Waldron

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2008, 12:39:46 PM »
Matt

I agree with Tommy about the Norman Course. I am not a big fan. I would prefer to play the RTJ Course. The front is rather boring but the back nine is pretty good escpecailly since the new holes have been added.

The second hole at the Norman is good however most of the remaining holes are squeezed between wetlands and environmental areas. I am sure it was not a very good site to work with. A challenging site and a poor designer are not a good combination.

Jimmy Chandler

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2008, 12:54:20 PM »
Jimmy C:

Jimmy, I've played a good smattering of courses you mentioned but I would recommend a round at P.B. Dye when time allows. Unfortunately, I hear that plenty of what was designed there originally was changed for a whole lot of reasons and frankly the style and nature of the original course is what set it apart from being a run-of-the-mill CCFAD course....

 Your listing contained a number of the ones I have played and there's little reason for me or anyone else for that matter to go there and believe they will have an experience of real quality.

Matt --

I will make the effort to get to PB Dye either this year or next.  I think the course was "softened" due to complaints, but it's reputation is still that it's quirky compared to other area courses.  I have played two other layouts by PB in the area (VA Oaks and the Gauntlet), both contain interesting holes and some that are too tricked up. 

As for the other courses I mentioned, have you played  my favorites Shenandoah Valley or Laurel Hill?  I strongly believe both of these provide "real quality" and I know I am not alone on these boards in my assessment.  I'm not claiming either to be world class -- but they are worth your time and are different from your typical experience.

Matt_Ward

Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2008, 05:47:33 PM »
Jimmy C:

Have not played either but will keep them on my radar screen the next time I'm in the immediate DC area.

Regarding P.B. Dye -- the course was fine when it first opened. The people likely who were bitching and moaning were likely the types that expected extremely soft turf conditions and your run-of-the-mill layout.

The par-3 11th is one of the better holes there and I salute Dye for being creative on the putting greens. They do require careful thought and positioning of the tee shot throughout one's round there.

I'll need to return there and see what shakes out in terms of the changes but frankly I didn't think anything was really broken to merit such a move.

Maybe those who have played the pre and post layout can itemize.

Rob:

The Norman Course was stuck with a very tough site -- there's little there that is memorable -- I also didn't like the forced nature of the final holes -- it's a lot of distance to cover and the 18th is purely a siink or swim propositin -- no pun intended.

If one could play the back nine of RTJ and combine it with a few holes of the front side of Norman you might be able to get a full 18 that is clearly a mixture of the best of two different situations.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2008, 05:52:10 PM »
Matt,

Here are some others not mentioned that I like.  None are great but all are worth a visit.

Augustine (40 miles away)
Lake Presidential (quite good)
Cross Creek (choked with housing but a well-varied collection of holes)
South River (adequate)
Compass Point (any combination of the 4 nines would represent a good muni layout although it is very busy)
Bull Run (sleeper)
Musket Ridge (40 miles out)

J

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2008, 06:37:21 PM »
I have played PB Dye many times and agree that it's a very fun course with interesting greens and strategic decisions.  Unlike Matt Ward, however, I'm not a fan of the 11th hole -- to me, something's wrong with a hole when you need artificial turf on the edge of the green.  Holes 10 (driveable par 4 with lots of strategy) and 12 (reachable par 5 with a blind tee shot and very interesting green), however, are really cool.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2008, 07:16:05 PM »
With 7 blind shots and multiple guiding target rocks and radical greens built seemingly to outdo his father, PD Dye is an excellent example of how the students of the great Renaissance painters could rarely live up to their masters.  PB Dye is one of better examples of an architect overcooking a piece of land, and the sad part is that he didn't need to.

JC

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #14 on: October 07, 2008, 10:42:49 PM »

Tommy W:

Help me out -- you said, "I have not played the Norman course since it opened but I really disliked it."

Have you played the Norman course at Lansdowne or not ? If you have not then how do you draw the conclusion that you "really disliked it." Is that conclusion based solely on walking the grounds?

Please explain.

Matt, I played the course the year it opened but have not played it since then.  I guess I was not clear.  So yes I did play it. And no i really did not like the course for the reasons listed.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Matt_Ward

Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2008, 12:53:41 AM »
Jonathan / Carl:

C'mon guys -- please.

What's so funny is that people who argue that architects too often fall back on the same lame designs time after time -- then when you get something like P.B. Dye's -- which is not as radical as either of you suggests -- then the critics come out and say it must be toned down.

The 11th is a fine par-3 hole -- to make note of a strip of artificial turf on the edge of the green -- is really a stretch of a particular fine point -- don't you think?

Jonathan, you make me laugh when you poo-poo P.B. Dye for blind shots but then you and others will laud courses across the pond that feature the same exact feature. There's nothing wrong with blind shots -- they are part and parcel of what an architect can do when he / she feels they add to the overall quality of the hole(s) and course itself.

You also mention how "radical" the greens are. Have you ever been to Oakland Hills / South or Oakmont or Lost Dunes via Tom Doak, or any number of other courses I can throw into that same column but are not roasted for being excessive.

You say he "overcook(ed)" the course -- how so and in what particular examples? The course has some of the best contoured greens you can play in the region for public play. You need to find the right place in the more than generous fairways and then be ever mindful of your approach play and where you leave the ball. The problem rests with people who wanted the course to be your standard fare with cookie-cutter type holes and greens.

Is P.B. Dye the person pushing the envelope with the way the course was originally intended? Absolutely. Frankly, people on GCA can't have it both ways -- those who want courses that are beyond pedestrian like in their overall style and approach likely don't have the eye or appreciation for layouts that are not simply walking the same tired and predictable walk in bringing into being just another ordinary run-of-the-mill layout.

P.B. Dye has plenty of risk and reward shots throughout the round and it constantly forces the player to make adjustments on the fly. It's far from boring and predictable -- it's about understanding as Clint Eastwood famously said, "a man's got to know his limitations," and knowing when to push the envelope.

Like I said before -- I'd like to hear from those who played the original 18 and then the one that followed after all the changes.

Jonathan:

Good call ...

Of the course you mentioned on your list -- I've played four of them -- the best being Bull Run -- believe it's a Rick Jacobson design and it's fairly good in a number of spots. Really liked the long par-4 9th hole and the concluding trio is a good ender too.

Likely I'd rather play BR before making a return round w Norman Course at Lansdowne. Like I said before -- if one could combine the back nine at RTJ with selected holes from the Norman layout -- FYI, the 14th hole at RTJ actually abuts the 3rd tee at the Norman -- you could have a much better composite course that eliminates the boring front nine at RTJ and a few of the more mindless holes found on the Norman layout.

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2008, 05:54:49 AM »
Sorry Matt - we'll just have to disagree.  I don't care for PB Dye.  There is a picture of PB in the clubhouse with the title "Creator" under it.  Kinda starts the round off on a sour note.  The course follows his warped Dad-on-steriods approach to design.  Gauntlet and Virginia Oaks are both similar examples in the DC area. 

Of the dozens of area courses reviews I've written over the years when I wrote about the PD Dye course I was instructed by my editor to bite my tougue.  He played the course with me and both of us couldn't stand it.  Instead of reviewing the course I wrote about a round through the eyes of a fictional scratch player (not unlike you).  My scratch player was quite put off by all the blindness.

I'm an original on this site from the very beginnings when just a few of us were posting.  Matt - show me any post where I lauded blindness - here or over there.  I've always felt that blindness was acceptable in only small doses.

You know the 90 degree rule for golf carts?  Well a friend of mine coined an expression years ago about golf courses with lots of random and blind shots.  It's the 180 degree rule.  Too much and he turns around and drives off the course.

JC

Matt_Ward

Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2008, 08:25:35 AM »
Jonathan:

Consider this ...

The issue I have goes beyond you -- it's the idea that architecture needs to follow a certain path -- you see it with those who only like what Doak, Hanse, C&C, and those of that type design. These same people will likely not like what a Jim Engh or a P.B. Dye designs, to name just two. Are the two men I just mentioned in the last sentence different, and even controversial with their styles? Absolutely. Does it work in all cases? No, but neither do what Doak, Hanse and C&C work in 100% of the cases either.

My point on blindness is something you have a very narrow view of in terms of it overall usage. You say it should be used in "small doses." Why?

Once people have played a hole the idea that it is 100% blind is not correct. Architecture should not be constrained through the simple and, dare I say, rather self-serving narrow comfort zone of the player. I see architecture as one that eschews formulaic and when possible -- provided golf's maxim that the good shot is rewarded and the poor shot is penalized proportionally to the level of execution demonstrated -- as including such elements. Engh has included a blind par-3 at his new Four Mile Ranch in Canon City, CO and it works superbly. What's so funny is that if you put these same people overseas and they play a hole with a UK and Irish zip code then you have people falling over themselves and proclaiming how marvelous the layout is. Talk about double-talk.

Blindness puts an extra special burden on the player -- which I see as being entirely fair game. Players have to align themselves correctly -- they have to pay particular attention to overall ball positioning and not just say, "Ok, make it easy for me to be in my comfort zone without any real challenge -- both mentally and physically."

Jonathan, I've said this before -- those who want their golf to be predictable generally follow the metaphor I've used before here -- they are steak and potato golfers. They likely hold their nose up at eating spicey foods like Thai and others of similar types. So be it. But, such players see golf design as a very narrow band of acceptability -- they are hardly pragmatic and willing to stretch their own feelings on golf design.

You mention the situation with scratch players. In my mind, it's precisely because of the narrow understanding of a good number of scratch or low handicap players that you get such a static and quite conventional listing of top courses when defined by Digest. They have a panel honeycombed with such players who want everything very easy to understand.

Jonathan, more often than not we have agreed so it's likely the notion of blind shots -- rather than the nature of the putting greens which I mentioned previously concerning P.B. Dye that lies at the heart of your argument. I have played Gauntlet and Virgina Oaks and while they too offer blind shots I don't see the level of care that Dye brought forward with his layout in Maryland. In those two cases the level of details is missing -- in Gauntlet and Virginia Oaks you have cases in which he simply went above and beyond the elements found in P.B. Dye. My suggestion to you and others who feel similarly, is to avoid the feeling that any P.B. Dye courser is likely going to be the same no matter what.

Consider the nature of the greens and the way P.B. Dye used the ground elements at the MD course. You have to get to certain positions and the manner by which the greens are contoured -- at least the ones that were so contoured when I played the course when it first opened -- were very nicely done in rewarding players who reached the desire point.

I leave this in closing -- too many people base architecture on how a course looks -- I'm not referring to conditioning -- but how the player can relate -- blindness makes you think harder and longer about what one does before pulling the trigger on a course.

I respect your overall sense on how you view a P.B. Dye course -- but what only suggest that your overall viewpoint needs to adpat to seeing that there are shades of gray in understanding that not everything that involves his name is the touch of death for you and others of similar beliefs.

Final comments -- were there any courses on the eastern shore you liked. I have played Hog Neck in Easton and would likely include it on any short listing of courses. Your comments on that one would be appreciated since Lindsay Ervin did a good job there and with Old South in Lothian, MD.

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2008, 09:55:52 AM »
Matt:
I'm not sure why you're lumping me in with Jonathan, since I actually agree with you (generally speaking) about PB Dye.  I was simply noting my surprise that, of all the holes out there, you would identify #11 as one of the best.  You now say it's a "fine" golf hole, which seems closer to correct -- though I still think there's a real problem with a design that makes it practically impossible to grow grass around the green (and the problem isn't limited just to the area just off the bridge where they've placed the artificial turf). 

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2008, 10:11:05 AM »
Matt: I don't want to gang up but I agree with Carl - what's so special about #11 - a drop shot par 3 with some water. 

I think what's frustrating is how many courses were built in our area on nice pieces of property without much in the way of quality architecture.  Maybe it's just me, but since I saw Wild Horse I just don't understand why so many architects have so little imagination. 


Matt_Ward

Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2008, 02:26:17 PM »
Carl:

I'm lost on where you think the 11th stands as a golf hole. I guess the word "fine" should suffice.

If there's an issue with growing grass -- it's a conditioning issue that needs to be resolved. The shot that's still required is not elementary and it does require proper gauging fo distance and execution - especially from the tips.

Jerry:

Try playing the hole when the pin is tucked hard left or back left. The sligthest sneeze to the left and it's adios ball. You make it sound like it's some sort of elementary shot. Play it from the tips and it's a good bit different than the frontal markers when someone can hit 9-iron or PW.

I agree with you on the aspect of the sheer array of courses built in the mid-atlantic that weren't really quality courses but all I'm hearing from the detractors of P.B. Dye is the strip of nongrass at the 11th hole and the idea that blind shots are completely out of character with golf design. That's really flimsy stuff in my mind.

Jerry, you mention the need for imagination - fair enough -- how bout the imagination seen with the greens at P.B/ Dye? My God the original 18 I played was done really well. When Jonathan opines the greens to be over-the-top then what about places like OH/S, Oakmont, Lost Dunes, Black Mesa, shall I go on. I don't see the greens at any of the aforementioned to being as such.

I have not been back to P.B. Dye since the changes were put into place so it's possible that the course you are now playing is vastly different than the one I played after the course immediately opened.

Rich Brittingham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2008, 02:38:14 PM »
I have a picture of this infamous 11th hole if someone can give me some advice on how to post it....

Andy Hughes

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2008, 03:27:00 PM »
God help me, but I am with Matt on this.  I find PB Dye to be much more interesting than courses like it's neighbor, Whiskey Creek.  It has holes that get your attention for a variety of reasons and gives you lots of shots of genuine interest.
"Perhaps I'm incorrect..."--P. Mucci 6/7/2007

Carl Nichols

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2008, 04:02:08 PM »
I have a picture of this infamous 11th hole if someone can give me some advice on how to post it....

Rich:
Only if your shot includes the artificial turf!
In all seriousness, I've never posted pictures here so I'm not the right person to be opining. 

Rich Brittingham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Lansdowne's Renaissance ?
« Reply #24 on: October 08, 2008, 04:06:42 PM »
I've played the course once and aside from the ridiculous greenside "pond" on #4 (I think) the course provided as much fun as I've had on a golf course in a while (sans alcohol). 
I 5 putted the 12th green from 10 feet away and its one of my fondest golf memories! Maybe I have psycho golf tendencies but I enjoy this kind of stimulation.