[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I may have the chance to see this classic course. It is well recieved yet does not get much if any play on here. Has anyoneplayed it enough to have thoughts? cheers Tigers

[TEPaul]

Sure, Tiger, there are a lot of us on here who know Westhampton well. It's a pretty flat course on the South side of the end of Long Island. Some really cool early Raynor architecture. I believe this one was Raynor's first on his own, probably around 1914-15 or so.

[Thomas MacWood]

HH Barker designed it and Raynor built it.

[wsmorrison]

There was a course built for the Westhampton Country Club in 1904.  I cannot post the article from my current location.  I doubt Raynor was involved in the constuction of that course.  Was Barker? 

Tom,

Are you saying the current Westhampton course was designed by Barker and built by Raynor? 

[wsmorrison]

From the New York Times July 3, 1904

[David Sneddon]

I may have the chance to see this classic course. It is well recieved yet does not get much if any play on here. Has anyoneplayed it enough to have thoughts? cheers Tigers

I may have this course mixed up with another, but I believe an old friend of mine is the Director of Golf and Head Pro - Bob Jenkins.

[TEPaul]

"HH Barker designed it and Raynor built it."

That's interesting, and I suppose that would have to mean that H.H. Barker got into designing the requisite "template" holes at Westhampton ala NGLA and the "National School!" 

Where do you come up with this stuff, Mr. MacWood? Is it in some old newspaper article that you will now refuse to show anyone because it might actually help someone?  This recent Willie Campbell and H.H. Barker jag you've been on this year seems to be getting pretty silly, in my opinion!

Produce your evidence and let's all take a look at it and analyze its credibility.

[Robert Emmons]

yes Bobby is still there...nice punch bowl , redan, and redone Biaritz

[Thomas MacWood]

There was a course built for the Westhampton Country Club in 1904.  I cannot post the article from my current location.  I doubt Raynor was involved in the constuction of that course.  Was Barker? 

Tom,

Are you saying the current Westhampton course was designed by Barker and built by Raynor? 

Wayne
I don't know anything about the old nine hole course. The 1915 course was designed by Barker and built by Raynor.

[TEPaul]

"The 1915 course was designed by Barker and built by Raynor."

As far as I've always heard Westhampton is considered to be the first golf course Raynor designed on his own. What evidence is there that Barker designed it?

[Thomas MacWood]

From Golf magazine 02/1915:

"From all reports the new Westhampton Beach course is going to be one of the best on Long Island...Herbert Barker laid it out and Raynor, the engineer who did so much for the National and Piping Rock courses, has been supervising that end of the construction."

[Jim Nugent]

So "laid it out" means designed?

[SPDB]

Is it possible that the author is confusing the Westhampton course
at CC of V, which was laid out by Barker and the Westhampton Golf Club?

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Thank you. So that's what you base your statement on that Barker designed Westhampton? It's pretty hard to imagine why apparently the club and everyone else has always given Raynor credit for designing Westhampton. Why do you suppose that would be, particularly if, as you have stated before on here, Barker was considered to be the second best architect in America?

It's also pretty strange that Westhampton has a number of "National School" template holes on it if Raynor did not do it.

Have you ever seen anything from the club about their architectural history? And if not it seems quite odd that you're so sure of the crediblility of a newspaper article but this certainly isn't the first time you've come to this kind of conclusion about the architect of an important American course via some newspaper article. If that's your only source of information regarding the architect of Westhampton I'd recommend you keep researching the subject.

[Thomas MacWood]

Is it possible that the author is confusing the Westhampton course
at CC of V, which was laid out by Barker and the Westhampton Golf Club?

The timing would proclude any confusion between the two courses IMO. CC of Va was laid out in 1909-10; the Westhampton (NY) course was 1914-15. The article is 2/1915. The author is clearly discussing a course on LI located at Westhampton Beach and built by Raynor.

[TEPaul]

"Is it possible that the author is confusing the Westhampton course
at CC of V, which was laid out by Barker and the Westhampton Golf Club?"


SPDB:

Very good question.

Furthermore, if Westhampton in Long Island cannot be considered Raynor's first design on his own perhaps Mountain Lake can be. If so, I know they'd be very interested in hearing that.

Again, if Barker designed Westhampton in Long Island, it does seem strange that he would include a redan, a biarritz and a short. Did Barker consider himself to be a disciple of the "National School" of architecture??  

[TEPaul]

"So "laid it out" means designed?"


Jim:

It could but not necessarily. It certianly could mean a basic routing scheme (such as a stick routing) without hole designs.

I also thought Barker was back in England in 1914 apparently having left this country feeling he wasn't respected. This whole thing with Barker on this website has gotten pretty strange, in my opinion.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mr. MacWood:

Thank you. So that's what you base your statement on that Barker designed Westhampton? It's pretty hard to imagine why apparently the club and everyone else has always given Raynor credit for designing Westhampton. Why do you suppose that would be, particularly if, as you have stated before on here, Barker was considered to be the second best architect in America?

It's also pretty strange that Westhampton has a number of "National School" template holes on it if Raynor did not do it.

Have you ever seen anything from the club about their architectural history? And if not it seems quite odd that you're so sure of the crediblility of a newspaper article but this certainly isn't the first time you've come to this kind of conclusion about the architect of an important American course via some newspaper article. If that's your only source of information regarding the architect of Westhampton I'd recommend you keep researching the subject.

I have found numerous cases where clubs are either uncertain or confused about their course's origins. Considering the fact that Raynor was involved in construction I don't find it strange that you would find one or two template holes. Barker was also known to build replicas. Westhampton is often cited as the one Raynor course that breaks his mold, unlike any of his other designs. Now we have an explanation.

What course was considered Raynor's second design?

I haven't read the club history. What does it say?

This article is the only contemporaneous source I've found that mentions anyone designing Westhampton. Their second course was designed by Banks.

[Robert Emmons]

My understanding is that the second course by Banks was on the better and more valuable waterfront property, which was sold off....RHE

[Kirk Gill]

Tom Macwood - I have also not read anything from the period when Westhampton CC's golf course opened regarding their architect, but lots of things written later attributing its design to Seth Raynor.

There is a listing of courses designed by Barker on the Raritan Valley Country Club site as follows:

Alabama - Don Hawkins Muni (FKA Roebuck CC) 1914
Georgia - Capital city C (1911) (apparently this course was originally known as Brookhaven, although this isn't mentioned on the Raritan site); Druid Hills CC (1912)
Maryland - Columbia CC (1910)
New Jersey - Arcola CC (1909); Raritan Valley CC (FKA Somerville CC) (1911);Rumson CC (1910)
Ohio - Mayfield CC (1911), with Bert Way
Virginia: CC of Virginia (Westhampton Course 1908)

The same document on the Raritan site says that Barker returned to Britain in 1915 to enlist in the military.

With Barker increasingly working in the southern states prior to heading back to England in 1915, isn't it just possible that the writer of that article in Golf did, in fact, make an error in listing Barker, simply because of the similarity in names between Westhampton Country Club in Long Island, and  the course in Virginia? Are there any other Barker designs in the northeast dating to the 1914/1915 period which are not on the above list? How can you be as definitive as you appear to be regarding this attribution based on one single article? Or do you have additional evidence?

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that to be so definite may just require further research.

Tiger - regardless of the course's original attribution, I'd love to read your report once you've played or looked at the course. One of the many places that will never let me within their walls !

[TEPaul]

"I have found numerous cases where clubs are either uncertain or confused about their course's origins. Considering the fact that Raynor was involved in construction I don't find it strange that you would find one or two template holes. Barker was also known to build replicas. Westhampton is often cited as the one Raynor course that breaks his mold, unlike any of his other designs. Now we have an explanation."

Mr. MacWood:

So have we (Wayne and I and Bob Labbance). Those would include Concord, Kittansett and Philmont and even the extent of Flynn's involvement with Merion. But all of us have gone over everything available, including club records and we have most certainly produced far more solid evidence than just some newspaper account.

"What course was considered Raynor's second design?"

I'm not sure but I think it may be Mountain Lake in 1915.

"I haven't read the club history. What does it say?"

I haven't read the club history or tried to look at club records either. I simply asked you if you had because I think it's pretty irresponsible to merely base your conclusion that Barker designed Westhampton on a single newspaper article without even bothering to research the club's own records. This is the same mistake you seemed to make with every club you take on as a subject this way, including Merion and Myopia. When others tell you what those club records actually say contrary to your conclusion you're automatic reaction seems to be the club's records inevitably must be wrong! 

"This article is the only contemporaneous source I've found that mentions anyone designing Westhampton. Their second course was designed by Banks."

We know Banks designed the Oneck course, but the fact that the article you just referred to is the only contemporaneous source you've found is pretty scary if you call yourself a competent researcher. What you need to do is a lot more searching and the logical place to start, as always, would be the club itself! 

What golf course did Barker do where there was a redan, biarritz and "short" done?

Maybe you weren't even aware of that with this one, though. You've never even been there, have you?

[TEPaul]

"Westhampton is often cited as the one Raynor course that breaks his mold, unlike any of his other designs. Now we have an explanation."


Mr. MacWood:

Where do YOU come up with this stuff? Do you just dream it up to rationalize otherwise completely illogical conclusions on your part?

Again, you've never even seen Westhampton GC, have you? It doesn't break his mold at all---it's about as characteristic of Raynor's architecture and style as there is.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tiger,

Westhampton is a terrific golf course, challenging and sporty.

And, the WIND is a major factor in the play of the course.

It's the kind of course you can play every day and not tire of it.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom Macwood - I have also not read anything from the period when Westhampton CC's golf course opened regarding their architect, but lots of things written later attributing its design to Seth Raynor.

There is a listing of courses designed by Barker on the Raritan Valley Country Club site as follows:

Alabama - Don Hawkins Muni (FKA Roebuck CC) 1914
Georgia - Capital city C (1911) (apparently this course was originally known as Brookhaven, although this isn't mentioned on the Raritan site); Druid Hills CC (1912)
Maryland - Columbia CC (1910)
New Jersey - Arcola CC (1909); Raritan Valley CC (FKA Somerville CC) (1911);Rumson CC (1910)
Ohio - Mayfield CC (1911), with Bert Way
Virginia: CC of Virginia (Westhampton Course 1908)

The same document on the Raritan site says that Barker returned to Britain in 1915 to enlist in the military.

The Raritan info is taken directly from C&W. There has been great deal of new info uncovered on Barker since that book came out. Barker did return to Britain in Sept 1915.

With Barker increasingly working in the southern states prior to heading back to England in 1915, isn't it just possible that the writer of that article in Golf did, in fact, make an error in listing Barker, simply because of the similarity in names between Westhampton Country Club in Long Island, and  the course in Virginia? Are there any other Barker designs in the northeast dating to the 1914/1915 period which are not on the above list? How can you be as definitive as you appear to be regarding this attribution based on one single article? Or do you have additional evidence?

I don't think its possible he confused the two courses; the timing is not right and the author was clearly familar with LI and Raynor. Throughout his short design career travel was never an issue for Barker, from the East coast to the West coast, from the Northeast to the Deep South, not to mention the midwest. In 1913 he collaborated with Colt in Chicago at Winnetka. Westhampton was laid out in 1914. Geography is not a factor.

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that to be so definite may just require further research.

Have you seen any solid evidence that Raynor designed the course? If anything the circumstancial evidence supports Barker IMO. Only one true template hole, two if you count Strategy - the Simpson knock off. I believe their were only two Strategy holes built - Lido and Westhampton. Those two courses were laid out around the same time. You would think if WCC was Raynor's first design there would be more templates not less. The other oddity is the unusual mounding. No other Raynor course has mounding like Westhampton...but GCGC did. I also have a strong suspiscion the original 17th at WCC was based on the 12th at GCGC.

Tiger - regardless of the course's original attribution, I'd love to read your report once you've played or looked at the course. One of the many places that will never let me within their walls !

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

I'm confused.

Are you saying that Barker designed Westhampton in LI ?

As to the templates, there's more than two at Westhampton, LI

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