[Steve Lang]

   Until you are of the class of golfer that puts golf ahead of other life priorities on a friday (work, family, whatever,) your golf talents apparently do not count in the club's social organization..

either lead , follow, or get out of the way  (Lee Iococca)

[Patrick_Mucci]

A.G.

Our tournament is exactly like your format. Although we also have a club match play championship as well.

I am on the tournament committee.

I am therefore responsible for the format.

According to Mr. Mucci, I am irresponsible.


Jed,

You're not the only one being irresponsible.
Those on the Committee and Board who supported the idea are irresponsible as well.

It's an elitist attitude at best.

[Jed Peters]

A.G.

Our tournament is exactly like your format. Although we also have a club match play championship as well.

I am on the tournament committee.

I am therefore responsible for the format.

According to Mr. Mucci, I am irresponsible.

Best,

Jed

Jed,

I'm curious.  If a member came to you and said that they were simply unable to play on Friday, and asked you to justify a format that required the club champion to be able to do so, how would you reply?  Where is the fairness in that requirement, and what is the logic behind it?

As you craft your answer, keep in mind that I've been a member of this club for nearly 15 years, and have supported it through good times and bad.  I've paid my dues, literally and figuratively, and am excluded from a competition now that I've participated in for the entire time I've been a member.

I'm asking this in all seriousness.

A.G.

We used to have a 27 hole/27 hole format Saturday and Sunday, first off.

Overwhelming support was to change it to 18 holes a day.

The Committee voted to make the change.

As for one member, you definitely have a say, I'd think. Especially given your position in the club.

However, the good of many comes before the good of a few or an individual.

[Jed Peters]

Jed,

You're not the only one being irresponsible.
Those on the Committee and Board who supported the idea are irresponsible as well.

It's an elitist attitude at best.

There is no Board, just the Committee.

Thanks for your input.

[C. Squier]

I agree that stroke play club championships are wrong. Assuming the club has a few scratch golfers, stroke play gives the 5-6 handicaps no shot. We tried it for 3 years and switched back to 36-hole qualifying and 4 rounds of match play.

Why should it give 5-6 handicaps any more of a shot to win?  Aren't you trying to identify your clubs BEST golfer? 

Handicap the other flights if you want, but the Championship flight needs to be played straight up.  If your club has a +3 that walks on water, he or she deserves to be on the plaque 20 years in a row. 

[Brian Cenci]

A little input, please:

My club has instituted the following format for the club tournament.

1. A three-day stroke-play format for the championship flight of the club tournament, with the flight open to anyone and played at scratch. 

2. Play in the championship flight begins at 1:00 on Friday, and continues on Saturday and Sunday.

3. All other flights are by handicaps, and play two days, Saturday and Sunday.

4. The "club champion" will be the winner of the championship flight, regardless of gross scores in the other flights.

I am simply unable to blow off work on Friday(s) to play.  It's impossible.  Since I am excluded from competing for the club championship, I elected not to play.  I expressed my disappointment in the fact that in order to be the club champion the two requirements are that you have to play really good golf AND be able to take Friday afternoon off, but got nowhere.

My question to the Tree House is how many of you have a club championship tournament that involves weekday work-hours play?  What, exactly, is the format of your club's championship?

Thanks in advance.

A.G.,
     You just described out exact format for my club.  3 day, began on 2:00 on Friday for the championship flight and other 2 on weekends flighted.  It is hard for me for work too but I made it work.  I like the 3 day format.

-Brian

[Dave Givnish]

We have a 3-day medal play championship, and the pro is quite adept at selecting just the right weekend for the coldest, windiest conditions.  We should probably sell his weather forecasting skills since he picks the dates 6 months ahead of time.

Our Senior championship is also medal play.  It is done over 2 days and we flight by age 50-59, 60-69, and 70+.  Prizes are awarded by flight with handicap and overall at scratch.

Dave

[Chris Cupit]

A.G.

If the event were held in the summer (July or August) would the Friday afternoon start be a problem?

In the 35 years we have had our event (and I only really can speak to the event since 1991) I have never heard a complaint about the Friday start for the CHampionship Flight but we have also had a July or August Championship that may have been  easier to get Friday afternoon off.

Again, as a player I want as many holes as possible and I think 54 holes is FAR superior to 36 holes.  But, I just haven't heard your issue brought up and now I can ask my committee on Monday night if that has been a burden that people have just never spoken up about.

[Tim Bert]

A.G. -

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but why is it okay to assume that championship flight caliber golfers should be available on the weekend for play?  What about guys that have weekend jobs?

I realize that this probably comes off as a smartass comment, but that's not my intent.  There have probably been good golfers who are unable to play in their Club Championship because they can't make a weekend work.

Given suitable notice, I don't understand why this is a big deal.  I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that most people can take one day off of work for an isolated event, given enough notice.  I understand this isn't the case for everyone, and in your case it sounds as if it just doesn't work.  It's unfortunate that in this case you are the odd man out looking in, but as Jed mentioned earlier in the thread there is probably no way that EVERYONE could be accommodated regardless of the format - unless the Championship Flight were to be structured such that you could play your round any time within a certain window, but that might result in competitors playing in different conditions.

[Jed Peters]

There's not a good golfer at my club that can't get one friday off a year.

Then again, there's not one good golfer at my club that doesn't play weekdays either.

And, I think the stroke play determines the best overall player, especially over 54 holes.

Our Match Play club champ is a hack compared to the guy that one the stroke play, he just slayed a dragon in the first round.

USGA events are not comparable to a (typical) club championship--in a USGA event, not only have players gone through qualifying to MAKE it to the tournament, they've played 36 holes of stroke play to move on, and be seeded accordingly. They're sufficiently "weeded out" by that time.

[Wayne_Kozun]

My club has the Open Flight of the Club Championship as 72 holes of stroke play played over four days of a long weekend (in many parts of Canada the first Monday in August is a holiday).  The first round is played on Friday afternoon just as you describe at your club.

Other flights are 54 holes and start on Saturday with a cut after 36 holes.

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.

If the event were held in the summer (July or August) would the Friday afternoon start be a problem?

In the 35 years we have had our event (and I only really can speak to the event since 1991) I have never heard a complaint about the Friday start for the CHampionship Flight but we have also had a July or August Championship that may have been  easier to get Friday afternoon off.

Again, as a player I want as many holes as possible and I think 54 holes is FAR superior to 36 holes.  But, I just haven't heard your issue brought up and now I can ask my committee on Monday night if that has been a burden that people have just never spoken up about.

Chris,
In my case, summer would work great because of my particular job.  But that might well be a net loser for the club because of vacations in the couple of weeks before school starts. 

I'd love 54 holes, and really like the format of a weekend of stroke play, followed by a match play tournament of the top 8 or so.

In years to come, there will be fewer and fewer complaints at my club as the format becomes more familiar and established, I'm sure. 

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G. -

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, but why is it okay to assume that championship flight caliber golfers should be available on the weekend for play?  What about guys that have weekend jobs?

I realize that this probably comes off as a smartass comment, but that's not my intent.  There have probably been good golfers who are unable to play in their Club Championship because they can't make a weekend work.

Given suitable notice, I don't understand why this is a big deal.  I think it is fairly reasonable to assume that most people can take one day off of work for an isolated event, given enough notice.  I understand this isn't the case for everyone, and in your case it sounds as if it just doesn't work.  It's unfortunate that in this case you are the odd man out looking in, but as Jed mentioned earlier in the thread there is probably no way that EVERYONE could be accommodated regardless of the format - unless the Championship Flight were to be structured such that you could play your round any time within a certain window, but that might result in competitors playing in different conditions.

Tim,
I thought of this very thing, and your comment doesn't come across as argumentative at all.  I realize that there are people who have to work on the weekends, just as there are people who have to be out of town on whatever weekend is selected. 

There is no perfect answer; that said, Saturday and Sunday are the best answer, and adding a weekday during work hours complicates things at least somewhat.  I think that is why so many clubs seem to use two weekends, and combine stroke play qualifying and a match play championship.

[Bill Brightly]

I agree that stroke play club championships are wrong. Assuming the club has a few scratch golfers, stroke play gives the 5-6 handicaps no shot. We tried it for 3 years and switched back to 36-hole qualifying and 4 rounds of match play.

Why should it give 5-6 handicaps any more of a shot to win?  Aren't you trying to identify your clubs BEST golfer? 

Handicap the other flights if you want, but the Championship flight needs to be played straight up.  If your club has a +3 that walks on water, he or she deserves to be on the plaque 20 years in a row. 

Clint,

Spoken like a true scratch! No, the goal is NOT to determine the best player. The goal is to run a tournament without handicaps from the black tees over 4 matches (90 holes) to see who wins and becomes Club Champ. The +3 will beat me (a 3) nine out of ten times in match play, but at least I have a chance in match play. In medal play, I have no chance to beat him AND all the other scratch players over 4 rounds. In match pay, I do not HAVE to beat them all, just one at a time.

The reality is that the +3 will win plenty of club championships, but the rest of the good players feel they have a shot, and that is a worthy goal. I have never won my club championship but I have about 10 great upset wins and I recall them all. I cant remember any of my rounds in the 3 years we palyed medal. My club championship remains a major focus for my golfing year, even though at 51 I may have little chance now. Change the format ro medal play, and I probably would not even sign up anymore.

[A.G._Crockett]

There's not a good golfer at my club that can't get one friday off a year.

Then again, there's not one good golfer at my club that doesn't play weekdays either.

Jed,
I know you are not trying to be elitist here, but the issue isn't really the ability to take "one Friday off a year."  I can do so if it is an emergency, but the nature of my job is such that someone has to do my work; I can't do it from home, or catch up on Monday, or make phone calls in the car or from the course.

The issue is whether or not it is a fair and reasonable thing for people to be required to take a workday off in order to play in a tournament at a club where they are a dues paying member.  If you feel like it is o.k. for you to require the golfers at your club to do so, more power to you.

BTW, I not only play weekdays, I played on the very Friday in question!  I just can't play at 1:00; I have to wait until after work.  And for that 3 hour difference, I am S.O.L. for the opportunity to compete for the club championship.

[A.G._Crockett]

However, the good of many comes before the good of a few or an individual.

Jed,
I KNOW you don't mean to say that there are MORE players who can play on Friday than on Saturday and Sunday, do you?  A cursory look at the tee sheet on any of 52 weeks of the year would nullify that claim immediately. 

What you really mean to say is that the subset of the membership that is making the decision on the tournament format is best suited by the weekday requirement, and that no other group or individual can trump that.

That may well be within your power, given your position in your club.  But that is far, far different than making the claim that you are acting in the best interest of "the many". 

I believe that may be what Patrick Mucci was referring to in the earlier post, no?

[C. Squier]

Clint,

Spoken like a true scratch! No, the goal is NOT to determine the best player. The goal is to run a tournament without handicaps from the black tees over 4 matches (90 holes) to see who wins and becomes Club Champ. The +3 will beat me (a 3) nine out of ten times in match play, but at least I have a chance in match play. In medal play, I have no chance to beat him AND all the other scratch players over 4 rounds. In match pay, I do not HAVE to beat them all, just one at a time.

The reality is that the +3 will win plenty of club championships, but the rest of the good players feel they have a shot, and that is a worthy goal. I have never won my club championship but I have about 10 great upset wins and I recall them all. I cant remember any of my rounds in the 3 years we palyed medal. My club championship remains a major focus for my golfing year, even though at 51 I may have little chance now. Change the format ro medal play, and I probably would not even sign up anymore.

Bill, I misinterpreted your post....I have NO issue w/ match play, as long as no handicaps are taken into consideration.  I believe match play will identify the best player, just as stroke play will....just in a different way.  But adding handicaps and giving strokes muddies the water, which I now realize you weren't advocating. 

At my club, I can't even play in the real Club Championship, because I'm not yet 35.  We have an "associate" Championship, which I'll likely never win as there are a few guys that play to a + and thensome, which is OK by me too.  I do wish we were allowed to play in the real deal though.

[Bill Brightly]

The 35 year old rule is a joke! How can you be a "Club Champ" when there are a bunch of flat bellies who you have not beaten!

Our club allows anyone age 18 and up, which is OK, very rarely will someone under 18 win. (Except Jimmy McGovern, who won it four times when he was 18-22, then went pro...

[Jed Peters]

However, the good of many comes before the good of a few or an individual.

Jed,
I KNOW you don't mean to say that there are MORE players who can play on Friday than on Saturday and Sunday, do you?  A cursory look at the tee sheet on any of 52 weeks of the year would nullify that claim immediately. 

What you really mean to say is that the subset of the membership that is making the decision on the tournament format is best suited by the weekday requirement, and that no other group or individual can trump that.

That may well be within your power, given your position in your club.  But that is far, far different than making the claim that you are acting in the best interest of "the many". 

I believe that may be what Patrick Mucci was referring to in the earlier post, no?

The vast majority of players in the championship flight wanted a 3 day format instead of 27/day for 2 days.

That is what I meant.

FYI, as a 4 handicap, I am in my club's "first flight". The championship flight is made of of players that are 2 index and below.

[Michael Powers]

There's not a good golfer at my club that can't get one friday off a year.

Then again, there's not one good golfer at my club that doesn't play weekdays either.

And, I think the stroke play determines the best overall player, especially over 54 holes.

Our Match Play club champ is a hack compared to the guy that one the stroke play, he just slayed a dragon in the first round.

USGA events are not comparable to a (typical) club championship--in a USGA event, not only have players gone through qualifying to MAKE it to the tournament, they've played 36 holes of stroke play to move on, and be seeded accordingly. They're sufficiently "weeded out" by that time.

Jed,
The purpose of the qualifying rounds is to narrow the field, nothing else.  If the USGA happened to have only 64 entrants to next year's Amatuer, then they would go straight to match play.

[Alfonso Erhardt]

In my home club the Club Championship is a medal, played every spring, although there is also a match play event played in the fall.

The medal is played over 72 holes in 4 days, always on a bank holiday we have in May. It is open to club members with handicaps below 11.4 and 30 lowest non-member handicap amateurs who sign up.

The match play event is played in October. Goes on over two weekends. Weekend 1, 18 hole medal on saturday to qualify 32 players. Two rounds of match play are played on Sunday (last 32 and last 16). The next weekend, two rounds of match play on saturday (quarterfinals and semifinals) and 36 hole final on sunday.

All competitions are scratch and played off the back tees. No carts allowed and no medical exceptions are made. If you are injured or unable to walk 18/36 holes in a day, you just can't play.

In addition, there are 5 monthly 36-hole medals (february,march,april, june and september) and a doubles club-championship (36-hole foursome).

At the end of the year, all 7 individual events are added up to form the club ranking.

In addition there are handicap competitions (and stableford competitions) from time to time, to make sure that higher handicappers also have their chance to win.....

The four day competition is the only one in which players need to take one day off. Since it is a very anticipated event, people plan in advance to make it. For those who cannot make it in a particular year, there are enough competitions throughout the year so they can compete.

[Rob_Waldron]

We have experimented with various qualifying formats for our Club Championship which is ALWAYS Match Play. We have used either 36-hole qualifying for 16 spots and 18-hole qualifying for 32 spots. The latter was used the past few years due to the fact that over 45 players signed up for the Championship Flight. The qualifying extends for 1 week prior to the tournament providing the non qualifiers the opportunity to play in the Flights. This seems to work except that the tourney extends for three weeks (Weekends).

BTW All Male members with playing privleges are permitted to qalify. Our current Champion is a 15 year old High School Sophmore. Our club has approximatley 50 players with handicaps of 5 or below. Unfortunatley none of us can compete with the young phenom who plays tournament golf all summer long while the rest of us working stiffs have full time jobs and part time golf games.

[Brent Hutto]

To the best of my recollection, never having played in the championship flight, we have the same format at Columbia CC except I think the first round of our scratch flight may start earlier in the day on Friday than yours. I can't see any problem with it. IMO it takes more than 36 holes of stroke play to provide a legitimate test suitable for sorting out the best player among a large number of more-or-less equally matched +1's and +2's. And a third day of competition seems a fairer test than having a 36-hole final day.

My take on it is that the guys who are truly in contention for the Club Championship tend to play quite frequently during the week. Perhaps our club is just top-heavy with good players but I can't imagine a casual weekend golfer hanging with the handful of guys who play 150 rounds and 10-12 tournaments/championships per year. It would of course be an entirely different matter at a club with no real "sticks" having significant competitive experience. At our club, the winner is almost always from among that cohort who can play pretty much anywhere, any time.

[Jed Peters]

There's not a good golfer at my club that can't get one friday off a year.

Then again, there's not one good golfer at my club that doesn't play weekdays either.

And, I think the stroke play determines the best overall player, especially over 54 holes.

Our Match Play club champ is a hack compared to the guy that one the stroke play, he just slayed a dragon in the first round.

USGA events are not comparable to a (typical) club championship--in a USGA event, not only have players gone through qualifying to MAKE it to the tournament, they've played 36 holes of stroke play to move on, and be seeded accordingly. They're sufficiently "weeded out" by that time.

Jed,
The purpose of the qualifying rounds is to narrow the field, nothing else.  If the USGA happened to have only 64 entrants to next year's Amatuer, then they would go straight to match play.

Not true.

Narrow field/weed out. Whatever you like to call it, it's culling the 64 best isn't it?

[Tom Huckaby]

I believe I have a new mantra/credo for my competitive golf life:

Our Match Play club champ is a hack compared to the guy that one the stroke play, he just slayed a dragon in the first round.

Having won ours (Santa Teresa) twice, I can tell you that's EXACTLY how I did it each time.  I slayed the biggest dragon and then kept winning. 

So I will agree that stroke play likely identifies the best player most accurately.  In each of my cases, if I play that guy 10 times he likely beats me at least 8.

But I will not give up that I was a worthy champion in each case.

Each player knew what needed to be done.

 

BTW, our club championship is always stroke play qualifier followed by match play... always contested on weekends.  Doing this on Fridays seems odd to me as well.  But I suppose it might be necessary for a large number of participants.  My club rarely gets more than 20 for championship flight.

TH

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