Variations on Doak's "E-shaped" green at Ballyneal?

[Bart Bradley]

When visiting Ballyneal certainly one of the more striking and unusual features is the "E-shaped" 7th green.  See a couple of photos below. (someone please add a close up)..







from behind:





It is very interesting how you can use the slope on the left to move the ball into the fingers of the "E".  I hope some of the members/visitors will share their experiences of playing this green.


What other E-greens are out there?

More importantly, how would a green work that rotated the E-green 90 degrees clockwise (sort of an M green)...with a slope in the back?

Has this ever been done?

Bart

[Chip Gaskins]

from the 4th fairway



i have a great video of my British buddy that putts from anywhere inside 100 yards having to hit a huge flop shot about two feet off this green to get it close.  i will try and figure out how to post it.  quite enjoyable.

[Ed Oden]

Bart, here is a closeup:

[Bart Bradley]

Great...ok now you've seen the green.  Ever seen anything like it?  How about an M shaped green?  ISN'T this green a wonderful choice for a short par 4?  ISN'T this green proof positive that quirk, character and contour are still being built?


Bart

[Tom_Doak]

Bart:

It is not a completely original idea.  It's based on MacKenzie's 7th green at Crystal Downs, which is a double-punchbowl in a boomerang shape, with a shoulder on the left so you can putt around the bunker and ridge which protrude into the right side of the boomerang.  I had always wanted to build a green something like that but I had never had the right situation and client to do it. 

We basically started with the boomerang shape, but the half-pipe where the green sits was so long that we had to add the little third tier at the back which makes the top of the "E".

[Bart Bradley]

Bart:

It is not a completely original idea.  It's based on MacKenzie's 7th green at Crystal Downs, which is a double-punchbowl in a boomerang shape, with a shoulder on the left so you can putt around the bunker and ridge which protrude into the right side of the boomerang.  I had always wanted to build a green something like that but I had never had the right situation and client to do it. 

We basically started with the boomerang shape, but the half-pipe where the green sits was so long that we had to add the little third tier at the back which makes the top of the "E".

Tom:

How about the same concept turned on its side...would an M shaped green work?  Have you seen something like that?

Bart

[Tom_Doak]

Personally, I think that an "M" shaped green (or especially a "W") would be a crappy hole.  People would be much more likely to miss to one side and leave themselves the difficult putt up and around the inside hazards ... and having the big bank as a backstop to the hole would dumb it down.

In the "E" configuration, on a short par-4, the player can only blame himself if he puts it in the wrong arm of the green.  And playing safely out to the right off the tee gives you more opportunity to use the bank of the green for your approach, while going left gives you no help with the slope.

[Adam_Messix]

I may have missed a mention of it here, but the neat thing about the E green at Ballyneal is how when viewing it from the 7th fairway how it melds into the 4th fairway fairway behind.  That's one hole where creativity is important and many ways to mess it up. 

[Mike Policano]

The E green is a blast to play.  It is not possible to play this hole and not hang out for a few minutes and try a few putts from different parts of the green.  Even bunker shots are fun here because you can it the ball to the left side of the green and watch it roll down to the hole.

There are many situations where you can putt the ball two and sometimes three ways to the same hole location.

The E green also blends into the 4th hole.  When we play a short loop, we sometimes play 1, 2, 3, and 4 to the 7th green and play 8 and 9 back to the clubhouse.

It is a great green at the end of a short 4.

[RJ_Daley]

I'm not sure, but seem to recall that there is something of a similar config on one of the Aussie courses.  Anyone from down under have a thought on that?

[Bart Bradley]

Personally, I think that an "M" shaped green (or especially a "W") would be a crappy hole.  People would be much more likely to miss to one side and leave themselves the difficult putt up and around the inside hazards ... and having the big bank as a backstop to the hole would dumb it down.

In the "E" configuration, on a short par-4, the player can only blame himself if he puts it in the wrong arm of the green.  And playing safely out to the right off the tee gives you more opportunity to use the bank of the green for your approach, while going left gives you no help with the slope.

Ok, I'm going to risk showing my complete ignorance here for the sake of learning.

Can any of you explain how an M shaped green with a slope in the back provides a "crappy hole"?  How would missing left or right be different than missing the 7th at Ballyneal long or short.  I understand that with the M shaped green long would be dead but missing the E left is certainly just as dead.  If you miss to the sides on an M, couldn't you use the back slope to feed the ball around the internal hazards just like on the E green?

I agree and understand why the W makes no sense (the large slope at the front).  I am sure that I just don't get the poor playing characteristics of the theoretical M.  Please feel free to teach me.

Bart

[Adam Clayman]

Big Run in Lemont Il. use to have the M shape. It did often require chipping up over the grass mound complete with tree to get to the proper lobe.

[Kalen Braley]

Didn't Jack do some kind of W or N green at the Glen Abbey?  Does that work?

[Rich Goodale]

Tom et. al.

Is the middle bit of the "E" pinnable?  Get-to-able?

Rich

[Tom_Doak]

Rich:

They can put the hole pretty far over to the tip of the middle arm.  And you can get all the way over there off the slope to the left if you want.  The slope to the left is maybe 8-10 feet above the green surface and all mowed tight, so if you play it high enough up there it will come a LONG way back.

[Tim Bert]

Rich,

My one day out there, we encountered this pin.  Perhaps not all the way out on the middle portion, but fairly well out there.  I liked the fact that from behind the green, you still had a line to putt that could get the ball fairly close to the hole.

[Tom_Doak]

Kalen:

Jack Nicklaus did several L-shaped greens early in his career -- 17 at Glen Abbey is one of them, Castle Pines and Loxahatchee also had them, and probably a few others I can't remember or didn't see.  However those greens were all pretty flat, so if you were stymied by the bunker in the crook of the green you just had to putt on the dogleg.  (MacKenzie built a couple like that also, late in his career.)  Presonally, I think the concept goes from cool to awful if you don't have a slope so you can putt around the bend in the green.

Bart:

I would try to explain my opposition to the M green more, but I guess it boils down to personal preference.  I just hate a hole with a big backstop at the back of the green, and (with a few prominent exceptions) I am generally not fond of greens laid out wide and shallow to the line of play, ESPECIALLY if they are symmetrical ... I just think they look horribly unnatural.  I will leave it to someone else to try and build your "M" green to prove my point.

[Ronald Montesano]

I'm a vowel guy...leave the consonants alone.  How about a dual-green in a lower-case "i", with a hazard in between?  A capital "A"?  We have a capital "o" at Riviera, so what else is left?  Vanna?

[J_ Crisham]

Rich,  We played 7 with the pin tucked all the way back. The bunker back left grabbed my approach shot. The bunker is very tough to escape from let alone keep the ball on the upper shelf. The group of guys that I played with found this to be the best hole on the course in great part due to the very innovative green.               Jack