[Ed Oden]

What do you think about a bunker in the middle of a fairway which can't be seen from the tee?  I started a new thread rather than post this on Patrick Mucci's thread since I don't think this situation fits his definition of a centerline bunker (i.e., there is no choice to be made because the bunker isn't visible).  Does this concept have any strategic or other value?

Ed

[John Moore II]

I suppose it could have some strategic value, I'm just not sure how much. I can say I would not be pleased if I crested a hill and found my ball, which I thought should have been sitting ideally in the center of the fairway, in a bunker. It makes the course too dependant on players looking in a yardage book to play the course.
--But as an aside to that, I would bet that Tobacco Road and Tot Hill Farm make a load of money each year from selling yardage books so players can cope with the blind shots, 90 degree fairways, etc.

[JESII]

Would this bunker alone keep someone from coming back to the course? If so, bad. If not, I believe in learning from the experience.

[Mark_Fine]

Ed,
Did you ever play Oakmont    Like most any design feature, it can have merit.  It depends on the situation and the designer.  The other key is to not over use any of them. 
Mark

[John Moore II]

Would this bunker alone keep someone from coming back to the course? If so, bad. If not, I believe in learning from the experience.

If that blind bunker was the only odd-ball thing on the course, I would come back. But if it was surrounded by other equally odd things in the design, I would not return.

[Matt Kardash]

I have no problem with it. The bunker will be blind only the first time you play the hole. And if hitting your ball in that bunker makes you not want to play the course again, then you take golf way too seriously.

[Sean Leary]

There is a great one on number 6 at Bandon Trails. Gets in your mind after playing it once..

[John Moore II]

Like I said, if it was unique and quirky, its fine. But if the course has a blind bunker with a lot of other wierd stuff, then I would not come back. I also think it depends a lot on the type of course. On a public course, I would not like it, too many new (both new to golf and new th that particular course) players coming in and it would make rounds take too long. But at an upscale private club, it would not be nearly as big an issue.

[Ed Oden]

I have only seen this a few times that I know of.  Oddly (at least to me), they were all on very good golf courses.  So the blind centerline bunkers certainly would not deter me from returning.  While I am not opposed to this feature, I will admit that I don't really "get it".  The fact that I can only remember seeing it on courses that I suspect most on this site would generally regard as of high architectural quality leads me to believe that this is a design feature with more merit than meets the eye.  Can someone help me understand how this feature adds to design quality or is it just quirk?

Ed

[Tom_Doak]

Yeah, that blind bunker on #15 at St. Andrews is awful, nobody will ever go back there.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kelly Moran has designed some wonderful blind centerline and inside fairway bunkers at Lederach.

The fact that some of my playing partners found them obnoxious and unfair only increased my enjoyment and appreciation of their psychological and strategic value.

It is a vastly underutlized and extremely effective architectural mind-game with the player.

Golf should be a game of adventure and DISCOVERY!

[Mike_Cirba]

On a related note, one of my only quibbles with the amazing Garden City are those little flags that mark the blind fairway bunkers. 




If I were King of the World, I'd rip those things down faster than the Poles took down the Hammer and Sickle once Gorbachev dissolved the Eastern Bloc.

[Ed Oden]

Mike, again, I have only seen blind centerline bunkers a few times.  I do not feel any were obnoxious or unfair or that there was anything wrong with them.  But I also did not find any to be strategic or have any psychological impact on me.  Rather, they were a simple one-time "gotcha".  Once you knew it was there it actually TOOK AWAY strategy because there was no real choice to be made.  Next time around you just avoided it.  Obviously, I have not yet seen some of the better examples of how blind centerline bunkers can be used well.  At the end of the day, I suppose this is like most other design features.  It all depends on how it is done.

Ed

[Bob Jenkins]

Isn't the 12th at TOC infamous in that regard?

Just pulled out Richard Goodale's "Experience the Old Course" for reinforcement of my recollection and it makes a point of how those tiny bunkers cannot be seen from the tee but if you were to be able to hover 100 feet in the air over the tee, you could see them.

Bob J

[Mike_Cirba]

Ed,

Isn't the key to have them placed where the golfer is tempted to aim for advantage?

It seems to me that locating a hazard in such a place (blind or not) is the key to an interesting tee shot.

[Chris Kane]

They're only blind the first time you play them.

[Sean_A]

As Mark states, so long as the idea isn't over-used its fine.  I would also add that anytime an archie wants to present a blind hazard he must widen the fairway - then the player can't bitch about not having enough room.

Ciao

[Philippe Binette]

There was a blind bunker in yhe middle of the 11th fairway at Augusta National for about.... a month maybe...

The story is that on opening day Bobby Jones dad, playing with his son, hit a beautiful drive of the 11th tee and found himself in.. the blind centerline bunker

Dad's comments were not really positive... the bunker is gone

[John Moore II]

There was a blind bunker in yhe middle of the 11th fairway at Augusta National for about.... a month maybe...

The story is that on opening day Bobby Jones dad, playing with his son, hit a beautiful drive of the 11th tee and found himself in.. the blind centerline bunker

Dad's comments were not really positive... the bunker is gone

I would like to see that  bunker brought back. That would be a good place to have one. Have it slightly to the left side of the fairway, forcing the player to either hit short or fade it into the gap and fairway right of the bunker in order to have the best angle into the green. This would be a very strategic bunker.

[Anthony Gray]

  I can't recall exactly were the new bunkers are on 15 at PB. But I think one is blind and centerline or close?

[John Moore II]

The par 5 10th at Old Elm has a small blind centerline bunker about 300-310 off the tee or so, just over the crest of a mild fairway rise.

The hole is a straight, 485ish par 5 that goes downhill after the fairway rise, so there's somewhat of a boost for hitting the downslope -- a long hitter who nuts one and catches the boost can easily have a PW or SW in for their second shot.

This, to me, is what makes this blind centerline bunker not only  appropriate, but also a near-necessity. If a guy wants to bust driver to get a really short iron in, he has to take the bunker-risk. If he wants to avoid that risk, he'll have a much longer approach because he'll land in a gentle fairway rise, rather than a gentle boosting downslope. 

I think this example is a good one. Its only in play for the longer player. But if this bunker was at, say 265 yards, I would say its maybe too penal. What type of course is this, public or private? That, as I have said, makes a difference as well.

[Sean_A]

As Mark states, so long as the idea isn't over-used its fine.  I would also add that anytime an archie wants to present a blind hazard he must widen the fairway - then the player can't bitch about not having enough room.

Ciao

Must he?  I say let 'em bitch...

Ah, Shivas, when its me who is 'em, then yes, the fairway should be widened (or at elast plenty wide) whenever a blind hazard is introduced.  Of course, that doesn't do much good when the blind hazard is also a cross hazard, but everything can't be perfect.

Ciao

[Jeff_Mingay]

These centreline bunkers at Blackhawk Golf Club's 13th hole (Rod Whitman, Edmonton AB, 2003) are blind from the tee; and, they've been driving certain golfers crazy for more than five years now. There's a lot of talk about these bunkers, which makes them most interesting.

We've simply been telling 'em, "they're only blind once" 

[John Moore II]

What type of course is this, public or private? [/b]

John:  it's so private, half the members there don't even know they belong.

In that case, I would say the bunker is completely fair, since the same people play it all the time, and its likely not in play for most players.

[BCrosby]

There was a blind bunker in yhe middle of the 11th fairway at Augusta National for about.... a month maybe...

The story is that on opening day Bobby Jones dad, playing with his son, hit a beautiful drive of the 11th tee and found himself in.. the blind centerline bunker

Dad's comments were not really positive... the bunker is gone

The blind centerline bunker on the 11th at ANGC was there as late as WWII. You see it plain as day in aerials. My guess is that it was removed by RTJ in the late 40's when he made other changes to the 11th.

I wish they would restore it.

The story you recount appears in a couple of places, but it didn't happen.

Bob 

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