Weak holes at Pebble Beach

[JESII]

I've found that most who feel the golf course isn't up to par focus on the collateral issues and not the golf course itself.

Not me, I played twice each at Pebble and Spyglass for a total of $120...I was just underwhelmed by #1, 4, 11, 12, 13, 15 and 17.

Of the other elite courses I have played...admittedly not as many as some...almost every shot has some form of excitement, those holes had very little in my two trips. #17 might be the exception, especially the second time, when you realize how small the back left section of the green is...but that still leaves 6 "weak" holes in my opinion.

[Adam Clayman]

I won't defend the hole, it is not needed or warranted. But I will be happy to describe some of it's nuances that I consider germane.

The hole plays downhill and is typically the same club as one might use on 17, sans wind. It's located at the farthest point from the Pro Shop and is where the course turns back in, so whatever wind one faced out, is now opposite. The opening at the front right is, IMO, the only smart play for any player above a 5 handicap. That makes it even shorter.  The shot is exacting, which under many peoples definition of quality, should be a good thing. No? The bunker scheme is unique in that it has a staggered deceptive quality. The bunkers in front create depth perception issues and the blind rear ones are real gottchas. The green is similar in size and shape to a few already played, but, what makes it unique is it's orientation. The green has an interesting convergence of slopes which are not impossible to read, just hard to.

 It's proximity to OB and the houses is likely the biggest reason people do not like the hole. Just as Pat's says above, collateral issues.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

Underwhelmed by # 4 ?

It's a marvelous short hole.

Was there any wind blowing when you played your two rounds ?

Underwhelmed by # 17 ?

Where was the pin cut, in the fronting fairway ? 

How would you compare some of the holes you were underwhelmed by with some of the holes at Merion, like # 6, # 7 and # 8 ?

Adam Clayman,

I think that's a solid description of # 12.

[Scratch_Nathan]

The 12th hole is atrocious by any standards... in other words... on any golf course, not just in comparison to the world class holes at PBGL.

Any par-3 where the green cannot be held by 90% of the best players in the world (unless it's been raining for three days and they play the front tees) would be described by me as awful.  Place a hole like the 12th at PBGL (without fixing such clearly lame design), and it becomes even more of a travesty.

17 is pretty ridiculous as well, despite the history and dramatic Pacific backdrop.  The length, exposure to the wind and microscopic green are not in proportion and unfair to any golfer.  Oft-maligned 1, 2 and 11 aren't particular compelling... but they're not bad holes for me.  14 doesn't deserve to take any grief... o.b. right and a green that's exacting and contoured... sounds like a three-shot par-5 target to me.

[Bob_Huntley]

I have been reading some of the comments by our esteemed contributors and find some of the comments comical.

Number four is a superb short par four. The beach on the right, OB Left, cross bunker at 200 yds to catch a rotten shot, a tiny green with frightening speed back to front, good bunkering and a barranca at back that guarantees a double bogey if one is long with the second shot. This might be a knockoff hole in a friendly four ball but in competition this can be a ball buster. Get out your tapes and look at some of the disasters in previous US Opens.

Denigrating Number 11 seems to be de riguere among the naysayers. Again, go to the tape and see how many world class players fail to birdie the hole when only twelve feet from the hole.


I think I must answer our friend Scratch Nathan on his comments on the next two holes. I daresay he is a scratch player which I am not,  but when it comes to having played Pebble more than most, I claim to be a plus.

Now we come to Number 12. It is not my favorite  but to dismiss it as a nothing hole is a mistake. It requires you to hit a slight draw at the right front opening. For the accomplished player this should not be too difficult. at its longest it cannot measure but 190 yards.  Look back to Tom Kites shot when winning the Open, it just requires some modicum of skill.

Ah, now comes the seventeenth. Flat? Go the right of the green and look south, if this is flat then  I am Charlie's Uncle. The genius of the hole is indeed that of the appearance that there is no there, there. The green is a mirage hidden by a cavernous cross bunker but with the water behind depriving the golferof any depth perception. Quite frankly one of the better par threes in the world. You can go at the left pin at your peril or play the shorter shot right and have a difficult putt across the green.

Some of you chaps need to play the course more often.


Bob

[Kalen Braley]

Amen Bob as usual well said.

I've never gotten why PB is so quick to be critized.  4, 11, 17...they are all really good holes.

[Jed Peters]

Some of you chaps need to play the course more often.


Bob

No shit! Now, how to get around that pesky green fee.....

[Adrian_Stiff]

Pebble beach was the most dissapointed I have ever been in a golf course, but probably because I expected so much. It has 5 or 6 great holes for scenery and it is the setting that wins so many hearts. Some holes are averagey, I dont really think there is an awful one there either. My order of weakness would go. 12 - 1- 11 - 3- 17 - 14 - 13 - 15 - 2 - 16  - 6 -5 -4 -10 -9 -8 -18 -7. Would I want to play it again... You bet.

[Scratch_Nathan]

BH -

I'm not a scratch player.  An 8.  When Tom Kite hit the shot you mentioned... hadn't it been raining for a few days as I suggested?  In recent events at PBGL, it doesn't bother you that the worlds best players can't hold the 190 yard green even 10% of the time during a dry week?  Mortal golfers need to play it as a REALLY short par-4! 

A little confused that you attributed some "flat" comment to me on #17.  Never wrote that.  I just think the hole is patently unfair (length, wind, ocean hazard and target size) and I can't think of any other unfair hole that I think is really good.

[Rich Goodale]

I have been reading some of the comments by our esteemed contributors and find some of the comments comical.

Number four is a superb short par four. The beach on the right, OB Left, cross bunker at 200 yds to catch a rotten shot, a tiny green with frightening speed back to front, good bunkering and a barranca at back that guarantees a double bogey if one is long with the second shot. This might be a knockoff hole in a friendly four ball but in competition this can be a ball buster. Get out your tapes and look at some of the disasters in previous US Opens.

Denigrating Number 11 seems to be de riguere among the naysayers. Again, go to the tape and see how many world class players fail to birdie the hole when only twelve feet from the hole.


I think I must answer our friend Scratch Nathan on his comments on the next two holes. I daresay he is a scratch player which I am not,  but when it comes to having played Pebble more than most, I claim to be a plus.

Now we come to Number 12. It is not my favorite  but to dismiss it as a nothing hole is a mistake. It requires you to hit a slight draw at the right front opening. For the accomplished player this should not be too difficult. at its longest it cannot measure but 190 yards.  Look back to Tom Kites shot when winning the Open, it just requires some modicum of skill.

Ah, now comes the seventeenth. Flat? Go the right of the green and look south, if this is flat then  I am Charlie's Uncle. The genius of the hole is indeed that of the appearance that there is no there, there. The green is a mirage hidden by a cavernous cross bunker but with the water behind depriving the golferof any depth perception. Quite frankly one of the better par threes in the world. You can go at the left pin at your peril or play the shorter shot right and have a difficult putt across the green.

Some of you chaps need to play the course more often.


Bob

Bob

I'm normally loath to "quote" large swatches of text, but this is one of your very best, and deserves to be highlighted.  Well done, brother.

rich

[Anthony Gray]

   First of all given the land aviable to work with there is no way to come up with a better layout . I think the routing is flawless.


    I do have one question. PB has very few flat fairways. I can think of even lies only on 2 8 18. Is this a flaw or is it just golf?


  OK two questions. For those of you that do not like 12  How would you change it to make it better? 

[Adam Clayman]

The characterization that the best players can not hold the 12th green is false. Perhaps during the open when they are overly firm it's more accurate but even then the shot played into it needs to well thoughtout and executed. One other factor is along the lines of what Bob touched on and that's experience. I don't know how many times I heard a pros caddy give inaccurate info. But it is many.

[Rich Goodale]

Adam and Bob are right.  I saw a geezer sling hook a shot to 15-20 feet in a recent ATT pro-am, so it passes that GCA.geek test.  Any pro or elite player who cannot hit a 200-yard high cut should get on this web site and whinge, as it is probably that he or she really can't play golf.  Come to think of it, isn't #12 really a form of "Redan"........?

[JESII]

I think any good golf course improves, in one's own opinion, with repeat playings...exactly because of the nuances of the individual parts...such as whatever it is that make the frequent players opine that there are no weak holes at Pebble Beach.

[Jordan Wall]

There is not a truely weak hole at Pebble Beach.  Anyone who degrades #2, calling it 'average', or 'weak', is surely mistaken.  The small green is fun and back right hole locations are particularly taxing.  Not to mention, it has one of the coolest cross bunkers.  It just sinks in ten feet deep, and can make the second shot a real interesting one.  Its not a bad hole at all.

As for #11, what else could there have been after turning away from the ocean at #10?  It goes up the hill, to a spectacular green, and offers a gorgeous view back down to the ocean.  I dont think there is a green on the entire course that I would rather not be above the hole.  During professional tournaments, I can imagine even from short distances pros would purposely play 15 or 20 feet under the hole, to ensure they do not face a putt or chip going back toward the ocean.  It is a great green, and a good hole.

I dont see everybody's problem with #12 either.  Since most people shouldn't be playing the back tees anyways, that makes the hole play 170 yards or less, and quite a bit downhill.  The green is not impossible to hold, especially from that distance, and especially with the extra heighth the downhill brings to the shot.  Yes, I happened to find it one of the more taxing shots on the course, but not every shot needs to be easy.  If you dont believe you can hold the green then there is a sufficient gap to the right which is easy enough to use.  The bunker in front of the green makes the shot particularly fun - do you go for that gap or test your skills to the fullest and try and hold the green??  I find it to be a pretty good par-3.

I have nothing to say about #17, because I believe it explains itself.  The green, the backdrop, the bunkering, and everything combine to make it a great par-3.  Anyone who says different needs to learn how to enjoy golf.

Pebble Beach is a truly amazing place, almost magical in a sense.  Each hole out there offers something original and fun.  While the ocean holes tend to get all the attention, holes like #'s 13, 14, and 16 are world class as well.  I could play Pebble every day for the rest of my life, and be perfectly happy (who wouldn't!?).  It is a wonderful place, and an amazing golf course.

Cheers,
Jordan

[Bob_Huntley]

Jordan,

Thank you. I'll send the check as promised. Okay, so I didn't ask you to back me up but yours was a splendid precis.

Bob

[Tom Huckaby]

So the testimony keeps coming in, from our elder and younger statesmen alike.

My feeling is this:  to me it's really difficult for me to understand calling Pebble Beach anything but great.  It's also odd to me to focus on perceived weaknesses when it has so many strengths.  I am indeed one who finds no perceived "weak" holes, taking them as Jordan and others do individually, but also focusing more on the collective as to me each fits in so wonderfully in the overall ebb and flow of the golf course.

It merits a Doak 10 as I see things.  I can understand some calling it a Doak 9; to me that's fine, the differences between a 9 and 10 need not be that great.

What I don't understand is focusing so much on perceived weaknesses such that one finds it disappointing overall, or calls it anything less than great.  Because to me if that course isn't great, I just wonder what is.

TH

[Jed Peters]

So the testimony keeps coming in, from our elder and younger statesmen alike.

My feeling is this:  to me it's really difficult for me to understand calling Pebble Beach anything but great.  It's also odd to me to focus on perceived weaknesses when it has so many strengths.  I am indeed one who finds no perceived "weak" holes, taking them as Jordan and others do individually, but also focusing more on the collective as to me each fits in so wonderfully in the overall ebb and flow of the golf course.

It merits a Doak 10 as I see things.  I can understand some calling it a Doak 9; to me that's fine, the differences between a 9 and 10 need not be that great.

What I don't understand is focusing so much on perceived weaknesses such that one finds it disappointing overall, or calls it anything less than great.  Because to me if that course isn't great, I just wonder what is.

TH

Tom:

I saw an overhead shot/photograph taken circa 1963 of pebble beach. The blown up photograph was in color, surprisingly.

It certainly was a 10 back then. No cartpaths, looked like it played links-style, etc. etc.

[Tom Huckaby]

So Jed, would you say it's not a 10 now?

My feeling is it was probably more visually appealing back in 1963 (or earlier)... likely played better... but the strengths remain such even now that it remains a 10.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Jordan,

That college education is kicking in mighty fine, that was a splendid post and well thought out/articulated.

I too have wondered about the criticsm of 11.  It includes:

1)  A blind shot to a semi-crowned fairway.
2)  A one of a kind green where you really have to place the ball correctly because missing left, right, or long makes for a brutally tough up and down.
3)  A worldclass view from the teebox.  (Looking back down 10, 9, and 8 is just breath-taking, and who knows may even be something on the beach worth eye-balling too!  )
4)  A worldclass view from the fairway and green looking back towards the ocean.

I would have thought all of these would be GCA.com virtues, yet the hole gets skewered.  If liking this hole is wrong, then I want to be the wrongest person on the planet.

Edit:  5)  I forgot to add that this green just may be the funnest on the entire course to drop a few balls and do creative putting.

[Anthony Gray]

Apparently, Pebble is currently being butchered by some type of self-flagellating hillbilly, or, at least a committee, who fear one.

  The new bunkers on 15. Why? Driveable par 4's are are popular with tournament play now.

[John Kavanaugh]

Tee times at Pebble are an interesting economic indicator.  Looks like someone just canceled an outing next Thursday.  http://www.pebblebeach.com/avail.asp?nname=Pebble%20Beach&ntype=golf&ndate=10/16/2008

[David Stamm]

I have been reading some of the comments by our esteemed contributors and find some of the comments comical.

Number four is a superb short par four. The beach on the right, OB Left, cross bunker at 200 yds to catch a rotten shot, a tiny green with frightening speed back to front, good bunkering and a barranca at back that guarantees a double bogey if one is long with the second shot. This might be a knockoff hole in a friendly four ball but in competition this can be a ball buster. Get out your tapes and look at some of the disasters in previous US Opens.

Denigrating Number 11 seems to be de riguere among the naysayers. Again, go to the tape and see how many world class players fail to birdie the hole when only twelve feet from the hole.


I think I must answer our friend Scratch Nathan on his comments on the next two holes. I daresay he is a scratch player which I am not,  but when it comes to having played Pebble more than most, I claim to be a plus.

Now we come to Number 12. It is not my favorite  but to dismiss it as a nothing hole is a mistake. It requires you to hit a slight draw at the right front opening. For the accomplished player this should not be too difficult. at its longest it cannot measure but 190 yards.  Look back to Tom Kites shot when winning the Open, it just requires some modicum of skill.

Ah, now comes the seventeenth. Flat? Go the right of the green and look south, if this is flat then  I am Charlie's Uncle. The genius of the hole is indeed that of the appearance that there is no there, there. The green is a mirage hidden by a cavernous cross bunker but with the water behind depriving the golferof any depth perception. Quite frankly one of the better par threes in the world. You can go at the left pin at your peril or play the shorter shot right and have a difficult putt across the green.

Some of you chaps need to play the course more often.


Bob

Well said, Bob. I agree w/ your and Pat Mucci's take on the 4th. It is a wonderful short 4 and if it's possible, is underated when great short 4's are discussed. I think the 11th is a solid hole. The drive must be placed on the left side of the fw or the approach becomes very difficult. I can see how some don't think much of 12, but I wouldn't call it weak. 13 has one of the best greens on the course, IMHO. Wickedly fast! As for 17, I have played ot w/ the pin on the back left and I can't see how anyone can call the hole weak with it there.

[Matt_Ward]

Rich said, "Any pro or elite player who cannot hit a 200-yard high cut should get on this web site and whinge, as it is probably that he or she really can't play golf."

Be sure to catch the tape of the Golden Bear playing his final round in the '72 US Open when his 200-yard high cut (a shot Nicklaus has some knowledge of hitting) hit the center of the green and bounded off the back.

The scowl Nicklaus gave to the late P.J. Boatwright was priceless.

Who knew then that Jack "really can't play golf."

Doak's take on the hole still fits for me -- "The par-3 12th is a real mutt." (source: Confidential Guide).

[Adam Clayman]

Matt, Mutts make the best dogs.

Did Jack's ball actually hit the center of the green? If was short of center the down slope from the backside of the fronting bunker would propel ones ball over. Look very closely where it really did land and get back to us.

Anthony, Your "why?" makes no sense to me, please clarify?