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Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #150 on: October 02, 2008, 02:15:25 AM »
Jon,

Im a grass hugger, I love them all.

I am a grass hugger too ;D ;D ;D ::)
« Last Edit: October 02, 2008, 04:18:00 PM by Jon Wiggett »

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #151 on: October 02, 2008, 04:03:51 PM »
Robert,

I bulldozed my old nursery at LACC last year and constructed four USGA greens that are being used as test plots for the newest bents coming out of the universities. A couple weeks after germination I was seeing poa infestation. But I controlled it and kept it out. If its not controlled it will infest the greens starting from day one and just increase exponentially.

I just returned from a trip to my parents house in Happy Valley Pa. On my way back to the Philly airport I stopped in at Bent Creek Country Club in Lancaster Pa. To visit the superintendent who is a good friend of mine, Jim Loke. When I arrived and waited for him in his office I noticed a framed article from "Golf Course News" on his office wall. The article was about what he has accomplished with keeping his bent greens poa free.

Bent Creek Country Club is approaching its 20th anniversery and Jim has been its only super. He came from Firestone and was there during construction and grew everything in. Those greens are his other children.

My point is, Jim Loke has kept his bent greens pure for almost twenty years. And that is no fluke. He hit the ground running starting from day one with those greens and keeping poa out. He never rested on his laurels and just let it happen. Hes an innovative guy thats motivated enough to fight it.

Im not saying that this case can be true all over the world or even norcal. But south central pennsylvania is no slouch. Hot and Humid summers and cold fall, winter and springs. Poa wants to be there.

As I was riding around the course one of his secrets was simply not to aerify while the poa is seeding. Jim aerifies in the middle of the summer. And there are many more practices that he does, and does not do to keep it out.

Thats why I have a hard time listening to "How poa automatically infests the green". In my opinion that if the super is savvy and motivated, poa can be beat.

If anything Jim Loke and his greens at Bent Creek are a testiment to that.

Ian,

You know what would be great? If you shared with us some insight on how Jim Loke does it, keeping Poa out of his greens forever, because lots and lots of the very best supers have tried and failed.

I could say, "I have greens rolling 13 feet every day of the year because I'm an innovative guy, there are many practices I use,  and I don't rest on my laurels".

But that would be friggin' lame.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

TX Golf

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #152 on: October 02, 2008, 04:12:03 PM »
Steve,

That would all be dependent on if he actually knows why what he is doing has worked. If he does, I agree with you that the world of golf would LOVE the insight!!!!

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #153 on: October 02, 2008, 04:20:44 PM »
JS Payne,

what do you do if you can't use chemicals? It will come even in the USA eventually. Also, what is so great about a monoculture? Bent or otherwise.

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #154 on: October 02, 2008, 07:35:56 PM »
Jon,

Help me clarify your question about chemicals.....are you talking about seeding a new green, or trying to eliminate or reduce Poa from an exisitng green, or simply trying to stop Poa from infesting even more of an already infested green? The answers may be different.......

In regards to a monoculture, very few stands of turfgrass are, and monocultures do have definite drawbacks. However, saying a "pure bentgrass" green does not equal a monoculture. Often greens of any type of grass are seeded with the same SPECIES of grass (i.e bentgrass, bermudagrass, fescues), but varied CULTIVARS. Like the A-series or the Penncross series of bentgrasses, or the bentgrasses on my course (we seed with Dominant Plus and Dominant Extreme, which in themselves are a mix of sub-cultivars of the 'Dominant' bentgrass cultivar). This keeps the green uniform, but assists in defending against pest and pathogens that may be more suceptible in one type of cultivar than the other, which is why we stay away from monocultures as much as possible.......if one dies or gets sick, the others are more than likely to suffer the same unless something is done immeadiately.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #155 on: October 03, 2008, 09:16:14 AM »
JSP,

Any of the situations you describe. Hand weeding is the obvious one but what other options would you use specifically to reduce poa annua.

I understand your point on cultivars but would also point out that under the cultivars there are differences in growth rates, leaf size etc. so I m not sure that using pure bents (palustris) gives the advantage of keeping the green uniform. Other than this what other advantages do you see in mono species greens?

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #156 on: October 03, 2008, 01:43:17 PM »
Jon,

You are correct, hand weeding is the obvious answer, but the other obvious answer is applicable to growing any turfgrass in efforts to keep out undesirable species: go back to the fundamentals of turf management. Specifically, find out EXACTLY what needs your desirable species has, and what makes it different from the undesirable species and adjust your maintenance practices to HEAVILY favor the desirable. Sounds easy enough, but often is very hard to be so exact and precise in practice.

For example, in this conversation we want to promote bentgrass and keep out Poa. I go first to my golden rule of turfgrass management: The best defense against any pest is a dense, healthy stand of turfgrass. So there's your first answer, you need to do everything it takes to keep the bentgrass dense and healthy ALL the time. There are two other management areas that deserve specific attention in this situation.

First, irrigation and fertility. If you do your research, you will find EXACTLY what levels of fertility and soil situation bentgrass enjoys. Look at how this differs from Poa. Specifically, bent prefers lower inputs of nitrogen than Poa. It also prefers more acidic soils than Poa. And as a more minor aspect, it tends to  benefit more from iron applications than Poa. Then look at the ways you irrigate. Bentgrass naturally wants to be deep rooting. Poa is a clump grass with shallow roots. Deep, infrequent watering will encourage the bent to go deep while drying out the shallow roots of the Poa. Essentially, with just these two elements, you can slowly but surely "starve" exisiting Poa as well as new seedlings trying to emerge all the while pushing the bentgrass to be more healthy and vigorous and ultimately outcompete the Poa.

Secondly, you have to think hard about cultivation, including aerification, verticutting, spiking, scarifying......basically anything that damages or opens up your bent to invasion. Poa simply cannot take foothold in a 100% dense stand of bentgrass....it can't find the soil and if it does, it can't find sunlight. But no stands are 100% dense. Poa comes in when and where opportunity presents itself in the form of a thin or open area of turf. Some of these you have a hard time controlling, like ball marks. But all of the cultivation practices you do have control over. Some courses choose not to aerify. I'm not saying that. Bentgrass needs and likes cultivation, but it's a matter of choosing the right timing, priming to the bent to recover as quickly as possible with shots of fertility, and to take all possible measures to prevent Poa from taking hold in any wounds you do inflict.

There are innumerable ways to go about doing this, and I don't even claim to know half of them, but keeping the fundamental ideas and understanding about the differences in the two grasses and making a dedicated, concerted effort to create and maintain an environment more conducive to the success of one over the other should help you obtain the results that you are looking for.

And in regards to the second part of your post.....

The answer goes hand in hand with what we're talking about above. The benefit to a "monostand" (though I really don't think that's a great description if you're looking at a literal definition) or one grass SPECIES type of green, is that you only have to worry about maintaining ONE grass! As we just talked about above, different species, while similar, still have stark differences in the way they prefer and OUGHT to be maintained. With one grass species, you don't have to play around trying to find the right mix that will keep both grass types happy. For one specific example, look again at irrigation. If you have a 50/50 blend of Poa/Bent, you have a shallow rooter and a deep rooter. Depending on climate and time of year, the bent on a USGA green could probably go with 1-2 deep waterings a week and be 100% fine. The Poa on the same green would be struggling, unless supplemented with some serious attention to handwatering or light daily syringing, which is what many supers in this situation do. I enjoy the fact that with mostly pure bentgrass greens, I don't worry about the Poa drying out because there's not enough of it make a difference, and I water max 3 times per week in the high heat of the summer and only had to handwatering the interior greens mounds twice all year. With more Poa than I have, I'd never get away with that.
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #157 on: October 03, 2008, 01:56:46 PM »
Well said JSPayne

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #158 on: October 03, 2008, 04:12:10 PM »
JSP,

thanks for the answer, an interesting read,

Jon :)

Mat Dunmyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #159 on: October 03, 2008, 06:58:41 PM »
Good answer, Jeremy. I would add that if it is important enought to a super to have poa free greens, watering once a week with supplimental hand watering in between and having a good set up person who sees all the greens every day- his 2nd job after set up is plugging out poa. I know this works- I've seen it done before first hand and this is what we do at Rock Creek.

Mat

JSPayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #160 on: October 04, 2008, 12:04:28 AM »
Thanks for chiming in Matt! I learned a good deal about all this from our phone conversation. I love the pics people have posted here of your course....looks like you're doing a fantastic job. We sure miss you in CA, but now TD has one of the best supers to take care of one of his best designs......very cool.

Now I just need to find the time to sneak away from my new place to get to see yours.......I'm itching for a golf road trip.

Let me know if you're ever back in CA......we need a reunion!
"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Mat Dunmyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #161 on: October 04, 2008, 10:33:30 AM »
Thanks for chiming in Matt! I learned a good deal about all this from our phone conversation. I love the pics people have posted here of your course....looks like you're doing a fantastic job. We sure miss you in CA, but now TD has one of the best supers to take care of one of his best designs......very cool.

Now I just need to find the time to sneak away from my new place to get to see yours.......I'm itching for a golf road trip.

Let me know if you're ever back in CA......we need a reunion!
C'mon out any time- maybe you and Tully should make a road trip!!

I may be back in  Nor Cal around January or so- I'll look you up!!!

Mat

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