Father forgive me for this GCA blasphemy...

[Peter Pallotta]

Jason - thank you. I'll go back later, but I just scanned through it very quickly for now, just to see the collection of names/posters. And to look for Tommy N's posts; man, did he make me laugh with some of his over-the-top posts. Here's one from that thread:

"Ray Charles, Little Stevie Wonder, Jose Feliciano and Rush Limbaugh could play any Fazio course out here West of the Mississippi and be underwhelmed."

Peter

[Jed Peters]

I got to view this course--looked pretty nice....like one I'd want to play for sure.

Too bad the ladies had it all wrapped up the day I was out there! 

[Thomas MacWood]

Ok...let me expand a bit on my thoughts and answer some questions.

Tom MacWood,

The most I've seen is an aerial of the course from the 1930's, before Perry Maxwell came along and added today's 11th and 12th holes (play usually as 17 & 18 in tournaments).  

How much of Herbert Strong's original design was still in play then is not something I fully know, but I can tell you that the course had strong bunkering (no pun intended), including some crossing (Sahara) type features, as well as staggered patterns to the fairway bunkering.  

Comparing that photo to a post-Fazio aerial I can tell you that it is not what either of us would call a "restoration", but it does seem to be much in the spirit and intent of what was there in the 1930s from a placement and strategy standpoint, and the consistent look and feel they provided to the bunkering is certainly an improvement on what was there prior, with a seeming mismash of different shapes, sizes, styles, and a lot of Gordon type ovals still evident on the other courses (see the recent pics of Weyhill on another thread) at Saucon Valley.

Mike
Are you sure there were new holes added? The before and after aerials I've seen show a dramatic changes in the bunkering. Strong's bunker scheme was really wild, and quite striking. I haven't been able to figure out precisely when those changes took place, some time between 1930 and the early 50s, and who did it, Maxwell or Gordon. I'm convinced Herbert Strong was born about 50 years too early.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...let me expand a bit on my thoughts and answer some questions.

Tom MacWood,

The most I've seen is an aerial of the course from the 1930's, before Perry Maxwell came along and added today's 11th and 12th holes (play usually as 17 & 18 in tournaments).   

How much of Herbert Strong's original design was still in play then is not something I fully know, but I can tell you that the course had strong bunkering (no pun intended), including some crossing (Sahara) type features, as well as staggered patterns to the fairway bunkering.   

Comparing that photo to a post-Fazio aerial I can tell you that it is not what either of us would call a "restoration", but it does seem to be much in the spirit and intent of what was there in the 1930s from a placement and strategy standpoint, and the consistent look and feel they provided to the bunkering is certainly an improvement on what was there prior, with a seeming mismash of different shapes, sizes, styles, and a lot of Gordon type ovals still evident on the other courses (see the recent pics of Weyhill on another thread) at Saucon Valley.

Mike
Are you sure there were new holes added? The before and after aerials I've seen show a dramatic changes in the bunkering. Strong bunker scheme really wild, and quite striking. I haven't been able to figure out precisely when those changes took place, some time between 1930 and the early 50s, and who did it, Maxwell or Gordon. I'm convinced Herbert Strong was born about 50 years too early.

Tom,

I'm looking at a 1938 aerial which does show some quite wild bunkering schemes, but which also show those two holes (today's 11 & 12)  missing.

C&W lists Maxwell as 1947; perhaps Chris Clouser has more info if he's looking in.

Geoff Shack's Golden Age book has a pic of the par three 11th credited to Maxwell.

I'm not sure what the Gordon's really did in the 50s, but I think most if it might have been around the bunkering of today's 18th hole and removing some of Strong's.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
I believe it was later determined those drawing were actually Gordon's and not Maxwell's.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I just emailed you the 1938 aerial.   I'm not sure how far it differs from Strong's original design?

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
Thanks for sending the aerial. Its very similar to the earial of 1926, the only differences I could see were the fairway bunkering on 7 and Strong had a big waste bunker on the corner of the dogleg on 15. I'm still wondering who was responsible for altering the bunkering, and the new 11th and 12th holes.

[TEPaul]

Apparently there is some fine documentation up there of all kinds and possibly a lot of it. Would you like to see it, Mr. MacWood? 

[Bill Brightly]

I'll find out who changed 11 and 12. But my understanding is that 11 was a downhill par 4, and 12 was a par 3 with a Biarritz-type green. I find it interesting that Strong built that type of green. (he must have been a Macdonald fan.)

At some point, the 11th was shortened to a drop-down par 3, and 12 converted to a dogleg par 4, with the biarritz green remaining.

[Thomas MacWood]

Bill
I'd be interested to know who added the 11th and 12th, and when.

Strong's original 11th was a relatively long par-4, that played from the current tee to a green not far from the current 15th green. The par-3 12th I suspect was a pretty controversial hole. It looks like it was about 220 to 230 yards up to an elevated green. The tee was over by the 16th tee and the green was in the same basic location as the current 12th green, in fact it may be the same green, although if it was Biarritz, maybe not.

There was a large long bunker right front of the green which had an interesting shape to it, kind of like a boomerrang. There was a smaller pit about fifty yards short of the green in the middle of the fairway, and complex of bunkers about 100 yards off the tee right before fairway began (those bunkeres do not appear in the 1938 aerial). Based on the configuration of the bunkers it looks like the hole could be played as a long-3 or a short-4. I'm wondering if it was more Redan than Biarritz, reverse Redan.

[TEPaul]

It sounds to me, after speaking with whom I did last week, that all the answers to all these questions are right there at Saucon. As is generally the case with these things, the accurate and true answers to these architectural evolutions are at the club. One will probably not find them searching old newspaper and magazine articles. Old aerials really help but the timeline with plans and architectural records are at the club.

GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is a good place to ask the questions and get some of the answers.

[Thomas MacWood]

The old 12th probably posed a safety issue as well, with the 18th running parallel. A slice off the tee would be heading directly into the 18th fairway, which was probably pretty common with wood being required off the tee.

Strong's par-3 4th looked to be designed along the lines of the Reef concept Tilly wrote about. A bi-level fairway with relatively large bunker cutting across the front about twenty-five yards or so short of the green, which guards the upper level of the fairway and the green.

[Mike_Cirba]

The old 12th probably posed a safety issue as well, with the 18th running parallel. A slice off the tee would be heading directly into the 18th fairway, which was probably pretty common with wood being required off the tee.

Strong's par-3 4th looked to be designed along the lines of the Reef concept Tilly wrote about. A bi-level fairway with relatively large bunker cutting across the front about twenty-five yards or so short of the green, which guards the upper level of the fairway and the green.

Tom,

I think that's a good observation.   The land also slopes quite a bit down towards the 18th fairway from the old 12th.   

I do believe the old 12th green is today's 12th, as well, only now a dogleg left from just down below the old 11th tee. (back and right of today's 11th green).   In any case, today's green is a very wild one, and one of the best on the course.

[Bill Brightly]

Just got the answer from someone at Saucon Valley who would know: Perry Maxwell made the changes to 11 and 12 in 1943.

[Mike_Cirba]

Just got the answer from someone at Saucon Valley who would know: Perry Maxwell made the changes to 11 and 12 in 1943.

Wow Bill....I'm surprised to hear that work of that fairly significant nature happened during WWII.   I would have thought it would be once the war ended.

Thanks for checking .

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

If anything this thread proves the point that broad brushes -- whether totally positive or negative -- are usually empty vessels because they assume that everything that comes from a person / designer must be totally good or junk.

TF gets plenty of hits here and plenty of them are justitifed. However, there are those who have played a smattering of courses -- generally in their own immediate backyard and then expounded that view into some sort of overall conclusion that for ever more such work from designer "X" will be labeled as one thing or the other.

Assumptions are easy to make and even easier to continue with.

Your announcement on TF / re: Saucon in conjunction with your love for Galloway (which I share and which I believe is one of the top five TF courses I have ever played) indicates that people need to see each and every course for what they are and only then begin to put forward some sort of overall assessment.

What your thread has demonstrated that opinions are easy to have -- it's informed ones that last longer.

[Paul Jones]

...but I have sinned.


Well...it had to happen eventually.

Redanman (aka BillV) and I have been simpatico on almost all of our course assessments over the years.   Like clockwork, we would find out that one or the other had played a course and providing each other with "blind" assessments, would end up very close in terms of the way we each saw things.

Mike,

In case you have not seen it... BillV start posting his thoughts on www.redanman.com.  I miss his input on this site.

Paul

[Mike_Cirba]

Some of Herbert Strong's original bunkering of the Old Course at Saucon Valley that Tom MacWood referenced can be seen in these 1930's aerials (courtesy of the Hagley Museum Dallin Collection);