Time Share Golf Club

[Patrick Kiser]

Has anyone thought of a time share based golf club?

If yes, why has it not taken off?  Couldn't this work?  I mean look at what can be done with little money ... Wildhorse or Rustic come to mind.

For those interested, we could volunteer our time on a rotation basis to help the architect make this happen.  Isn't that a little of what happened at Bandon Dunes / Pacific Dunes?

I think a while back there was some discussion about a GCA course ... but whatever happened to that?

I'm bringing this up, because maybe it would be nice to have our own little Ballyneal or Sand Hills ... for a couple of times a year.

Dreaming's for free...

[brad_miller]

A better model. Almost all the these destination courses are trying to sell memberships for something like $50-100,000 plus a few have been built in low cost areas (low land cost) with reasonable construction costs. Why have a few not tried to target a MUCH larger membership at a much lower cost?  For that matter a very simple clubhouse and dorm setup. As long as the club isn't the primary place for its members to play during the season I see know reason why one couldn't have 500-600 members. The next few years are going to be difficult and I think we are about to see even a few new courses that would be (are) Doak 8-9's in trouble with the high cost to join model.

[Mike Sweeney]

Brad,

The Prairie Club seems to have that type of model with smaller numbers. However, the problem is your don't actually own anything. You are buying a membership that gives you rights to play the club. It is a license. If the club goes under and is sold back to a rancher you have no chance to get any money back.

For me, the days of "throw away" money are gone, and this is just a suggestion. Make the members owners via debt or equity, and they will think of how to grow the club rather than how to get from the club.

They might also look at these horse syndicates where "the public" owns fractional shares in the horse.

[David_Tepper]

Patrick & Brad -

If you were developing a new golf club that required an investment of $5-$10 million, wouldn't your life be much simpler if you could sell 200 memberships with an $50,000 initiation fee rather than 500 memberships with a $20,000 initiation fee?

From a business development point of view, fewer members means fewer hassles (and fewer members to complain about something! ).

Let's face it, snob appeal and exclusivity is what sells a lot of these projects to prospective members.  In the luxury goods business, things become easier to sell by charging more, not less.  As long as there is a class of ultra-rich people sufficient to support these projects, they will be built.

DT 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Wasn't something like this the Loch Lomond model?

[Mike Sweeney]

David,

I agree. If I was an owner that is the way that I would want to do it, but that membership profile just got smaller in numbers over the last few weeks.

In addition, I personally don't want to join any club where I feel like I have to go there every year. I really love going out there, but I dont want to and can't do it every year.

I joined Enniscrone for a one time fee back when I had throw away money, and I will use it now that my son is getting older and the dollar looks to be coming back. However, I would not join today based on what I hear are today's new rates at some of the overseas clubs.

These days if you belong to a private club, you can get on a bunch of private clubs. Not all, but many because they all want the revenue.

The world is changing, and golf has been in trouble before the economy turned. It needs to adjust. I have no doubt that the majority of the clubs that we speak about here will NOT need to change. The other 14,000 in the US alone probably will.

[brad_miller]

David,

I agree, but that said it seems there are many REALLY REALLY good maybe great places that are struggling to get members at $50,000 plus and recent events WILL NOT make it easier. I suspect one or two of the favored sons of this web site could be included in this analysis.

Further I am not sure anyone that understands the typical model would commit to paying $50,000 plus to be member number 90 of a club that has been open 2 years and risks losing such fee if they don't make it.

[Dan_Callahan]

Forget $50k, I was thinking about joining a club north of Boston for $30k, but given the economic climate and the fact that it is only a few years old I have backed off. It seems very possible (if not probable) that a high number of these new clubs that were in membership drives even when the economy was good are going to fail. I'm not frugal, but I'm not interested in flushing money down the toilet.

[Mike_Young]

Guys,
If many of these places were given to the members and all you had were 200 members the annual expenses would be extreme.  And if you only have a 100 ......your'e probably looking at a minimum of 10 grand a year for just the chance to play once or twice a year.....

[Patrick Kiser]

I think some of you are missing my point.

I'm not talking about joining any existing club.

I'm saying start our own.

I'm pretty confident in saying with HPI dropping like crazy ... a piece of land could be purchased on the cheap and GCA members could build their own course.

Everyone volunteers their time and sweat.  A designer member architects the course for nothing and is a life member.

Get creative and keep the costs super low.

No crazy clubhouse.  No carts.  No cart paths.  Just pure golf.  Nothing more.

Why couldn't this happen for less than say Wildhorse or Rustic?  We're not talking $5M-$10M.  South of that.

[David_Tepper]

Guys -

To amplify my prior comments, I can assure you that I have been deeply skeptical of all these "destination" golf clubs/courses with national memberships that have been developed to cater to the private-jet CEO/investment banker crowd over the past 10-20 years. It always amazes me that there is a sizeable pool of golfers willing to shell out $10,000 per year in annual dues (on top of a $50,000+ initiation fee) to belong to a golf club where they might not play more than 5 or 10 rounds of golf a year. 

As a registered investment advisor, I am ACUTELY aware of how the economic landscape has changed over the past few weeks.  That being said, I think history shows that hard times impact the spending of the middle class much more than the ultra-rich.

Patrick K. -

What you are proposing has been raised on this board before. In the abstract, it sounds like a fine idea.

It takes a group of several people with plenty of time and energy to make something like this happen.

Do some homework. Find a site that might work. Come up with a budget that makes sense. Find an architect willing to design a course for no compensation other than a life membership. I think you will surprised by what you learn.

DT     

 

[Kalen Braley]

Guys -

To amplify my prior comments, I can assure you that I have been deeply skeptical of all these "destination" golf clubs/courses with national memberships that have been developed to cater to the private-jet CEO/investment banker crowd over the past 10-20 years. It always amazes me that there is a sizeable pool of golfers willing to shell out $10,000 per year in annual dues (on top of a $50,000+ initiation fee) to belong to a golf club where they might not play more than 5 or 10 rounds of golf a year. 

As a registered investment advisor, I am ACUTELY aware of how the economic landscape has changed over the past few weeks.  That being said, I think history shows that hard times impact the spending of the middle class much more than the ultra-rich.

 

David,

To me its seemed to lead me to beleive a couple of things.

1)  Some people, and apparently there are enough of them, have enough money burning a hole in thier pocket where $50K up front and $10k per year is akin to buying a couple of beers at the local watering hole for the average joe.

2)  As JK says, a private club is not about choosing who to let in, but who to keep out.  I'm sure they appreciate the private and exclusive nature of the club where they can just show up, play, and have a good time.

3)  Having a legit get away to a remote location where they can decompress, let thier guard down, and just leave it all behind.  $10k per year is fairly cheap when your in the top 5% income bracket.  

[Chip Gaskins]

GCA Golf Course: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33827.0.html

[Adam Clayman]

Has anyone thought of a time share based golf club?

Patrick, Here's a link to a friends project.

http://www.littlediamondclub.com/

The time share aspect is for rooms in the clubhouse and the golf is just available. Sort of like "in the back yard"

Situated between Black Diamond Ranch and World Woods, the location seems perfect.

Since Edward is not the smooth operator many attempt, he is honest and solely responsible for transforming an abandoned quarry into something that finally has real potential.

He's also the author of the song on Itunes listed below. He called yesterday with the news that he produced a B side to "Golf's the Game We're Playing" and ten new numbers and is considering an album.

Without the dreamer's we'd all be worse off.
 
 

[David_Tepper]

Kalen -

I think you have summed up the situation nicely.

One other thing to mention is it is likely that the initiation fees & annual dues at these "destination" clubs are, in many cases, written off  or subsidized in some manner as a business expense.

DT 

[Patrick Kiser]

Chip,

Bingo.  That's the one.  I knew I saw that thread at one time or another.

Funny how Ballyneal came up even back then.

GCA Golf Course: http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33827.0.html

[Abe Summers]

I do not know about the time share golf club, but I did recently read about a the Inverness Club in Toledo, OH, that was allowing people who lived a certain distance away to get memberships at significantly reduced rates.  Sounds pretty similar to what you are thinking, Patrick.

Here's the blurb from Chris Millard's Golf Digest article:

Inverness now offers one of the best nonresident deals in all of golf. Historically, Inverness has offered a handful of nonresident memberships. In recent years, however, the club has found opportunity in what it refers to as "regional" and "national" memberships. The initiation fee for a regional member (who must live 45 to 100 miles from the club) is $9,000. Annual dues are $4,200, and there is no food minimum. National members (100-plus miles from the club) pay an initiation fee of $6,500 and annual dues of $3,480. Each classification has full use of the club and the ability to entertain seven guests daily.

[David Schofield]

I think I've heard of courses that operate, roughly, as Time Share Private Golf Clubs.  They're called Daily Fee Courses.  The best part: no assessments... 

[Mike Sweeney]

3)  Having a legit get away to a remote location where they can decompress, let thier guard down, and just leave it all behind.  $10k per year is fairly cheap when your in the top 5% income bracket.  

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html


From 2006 data: "Including all tax returns that had a positive AGI, taxpayers with an AGI of $153,542 or more in 2006 constituted the nation's top 5 percent of earners. To break into the top 1 percent, a tax return had to have an AGI of $388,806 or more. These numbers are up significantly from 2003 when the equivalent thresholds were $130,080 and $295,495. Top incomes in 2006 are also continuing to surpass the peak they reached in 2000. At the height of the boom and bubble, $313,469 was the threshold to break into the top 1 percent, and then it fell to $285,424 in 2002 only to finally recover fully in 2005."

Kalen,

I think you need to adjust your number assumptions.