Possible Changes at ANGC

[Phil Benedict]

Saw a reference on Geoff Shackleford's site that Augusta may unveil some changes when it reopens later this month.  Among the following options, what should they do:

1)  Eliminate the first cut;
2)  Set up some optional tees to allow for greater flexibility in daily tournament set up; or
3)  Get rid of some of the more problematical tree plantings (eg 11 and 15)?

My guess is the changes will be more along the lines of option 2, since 1 and 3 involve the admission of error.  I just don't think Billy would throw Hootie under the bus like that.

[Matt_Ward]

Phil:

Return the course to a more saner overall distance so more players are in the mix. The added length has only served to narrow the opportunity for the bulk of the field.

Augusta does this with each Masters after the first two rounds are torture tests -- the weekend tees are adjusted to allow for more scoring. They should do this for the whole 72 holes.

Instead of playing Augusta at 7,400 yards -- return to a max of 7,100 yards and be sure to eliminate not only the first cut but the inane tree plantings that have clogged way too many holes -- namely the 7th, 11th and 15th holes, to name the three top culprits. I agree with you on your statements.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Phil

Haven't seen Shack's post but the club definitely is extending the tee on 15 to shorten it as circumstances dictate and cutting trees on 11.  Those you can take to the bank.  I think they're extending the tee on 13 too but my memory's a little vaguer there.

Mark

[Mike Mosely]

Phil

Haven't seen Shack's post but the club definitely is extending the tee on 15 to shorten it as circumstances dictate and cutting trees on 11.  Those you can take to the bank.  I think they're extending the tee on 13 too but my memory's a little vaguer there.

Mark

How do you know that, Mark?

I agree with the changes.  They've learned.  Nice find, Phil!

[Phil Benedict]

Mike,

I wasn't implying that I know what the changes will be, I was just speculating on broad categories of what they could be.

The other thing about the admission of error - which removing the first cut would clearly be - is that it undercuts Mucci's extention of Papal Infallibility to clubs run by benevolent dictators.

[Joe Fairey]

My thoughts....starting from first hole...I would love to see the green complex changed slightly to penalize an approach short as much as one too long....it seems to be a pretty easy up-down from in front...very difficult from behind...

for many years I have felt that the right side of 6 green is too severe...even the world's best cannot stop the ball when putting off that right side

move the tee box up on 7...play the hole as it was designed...

trees on right side 11 fairway...I dont see any reason to remove them...maybe some of the older ones back near 10 green for other reasons

and finally, if the committee wants eagles/birdies on 15 on Sunday, they must have the option of moving the tees forward...especially, against a north wind....

just my two cents...I guess we'll find out soon....

[TX Golf]

My two cents.... I don't think the distance is as much an issue. I would prefer the wider corridors and no rough over a decrease in distance. However, the perfect scenario would be to play it from 7150-7200 depending on the weather, fairway everywhere, and lose the trees on 7,11, and 15.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I don't believe that # 13 can be extended any further.
I think the new back tee, built when ANGC acquired land from ACC, is about at the property line.

While ANGC has historically been tweaked, dating back to its inception, I don't know that tweaking occured every year, although it might have.

As to building new sets of tees, I don't see that happening.
I think ANGC will preserve its two set configuration, Members and Masters.

[Ken Moum]

Mark,

I don't believe that # 13 can be extended any further.
I think the new back tee, built when ANGC acquired land from ACC, is about at the property line.

I think he's talking about extending it forward.

K

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mark,

I don't believe that # 13 can be extended any further.
I think the new back tee, built when ANGC acquired land from ACC, is about at the property line.

I think he's talking about extending it forward.

I believe that Rae's Creek would prevent that.

If it didn't, the hole would become ridiculously easy for the best players in the world.

If you recall, before the tee was extended back, golfers were hitting 3-wood up over the trees on the corner, leaving them an 8-iron into the green.

I don't think that the good Doctor and RTJJR envisioned or intended that method of play.

Moving the tee forward of the current tee complex is probably one of the worst suggestions I've ever heard for ANGC.

[Phil Benedict]

Just an idea:  I don't know the course that well, but is there any way they could move the tee up on #14 and let guys take a poke at it?

I'd love to see bogeys from guys just off the green with their drives there...

Setting up for a drivable par 4 is something I didn't consider but it strikes me as too imaginative for the men in the green jacket. 

[Ken Moum]

Mark,

I don't believe that # 13 can be extended any further.
I think the new back tee, built when ANGC acquired land from ACC, is about at the property line.

I think he's talking about extending it forward.

I believe that Rae's Creek would prevent that.

If it didn't, the hole would become ridiculously easy for the best players in the world.

If you recall, before the tee was extended back, golfers were hitting 3-wood up over the trees on the corner, leaving them an 8-iron into the green.

I don't think that the good Doctor and RTJJR envisioned or intended that method of play.

Moving the tee forward of the current tee complex is probably one of the worst suggestions I've ever heard for ANGC.

Using Google Earth's ruler, it appears that the current Masters tee is about 40 yards back of the member's tee.

The member's tee is, as you suggest, up against the creek. Also, it appears you are correct about the Masters tee relationship to Augusta CC and there doesn't appear to be room for more.

So there would be room between them to extend the Master's tee a bit, which could allow them to put it up, depending on weather conditions, with the goal of encouraging more players to have a go at it in two.

Whether that's a good idea or not is for someone besides me to decide.

[Brett Morris]

This year, Augusta:

Rebuilt the 1st green



Sandcapped the 11th fairway

[Matt_Cohn]

Phil:
return to a max of 7,100 yards...

I don't see how a bunch of driver/wedge par-4's are going to make the Masters a better tournament.

[jeffwarne]

Phil:

Return the course to a more saner overall distance so more players are in the mix. The added length has only served to narrow the opportunity for the bulk of the field.

Yeah-can't have those no names like Nicklaus, Palmer,Hogan, Woods, cluttering up the trophy room.
Imagine that-a course that has consisitently identified the best of their respective eras.
Monday qualifying would also bring more guys into the mix

[Phil Benedict]

On the topic of the added length I don't think the data supports the notion that it has eliminated bulk of the field.  Mike Weir, Zach Johnson, Trevor Immelman - they're not long hitters by Tour standards.  I think the combinations of trees and rough have offset the advantages the long hitters would otherwise have gotten from the added length.

[Matt_Ward]

Matt Cohn:

Get real.

You hear about 3-4 guys that hit driver / wedge and then ipso facto the entire field is doing likewise.

That doesn't happen as much as you and the folks at Augusta think.

Jeff W:

Check the entire record book when you can -- it's easy to open the pages and see the other names you skipped -- be sure to look at the names when Hootie came on board and turned Augusta on its head.

Oh, but then, you may really like the present Augusta (aka US Open site) layout.

Phil B:

People like Weir, Johnson and Immelman won Masters that were among the most boring of all time. They had incredible putting weeks -- pure and simple.

Check out the years when Augusta was even actually UNDER 7,000 yards. The events had more mystery and much more fun from a greater range of players who thrived on making low score and not simply surviving.

Anyone who thinks the 7th hole is better now because they added nearly 100 yards and still kept the trees as narrow on that hole as before needs to come out of the dark shadows they are living.

[Tom_Doak]

Rees Jones told me the other day that the club was moving the tees forward on #7 and #15 this winter.  I haven't seen any notices from the club about changes, but they are less likely to talk about that sort of shift.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

That would be refreshing - but Augusta (aka The Vatican) doesn't ever admit errors.

The whole notion of what Mackenzie and Jones created with Augusta has been turned on its head and I have to wonder what Doak number you would give the course as per how it was for the 2008 Masters?

[TX Golf]

Matt,

I think this is the case but didn't they actually narrow the fairway and plant more trees when they lengthened the hole?? In this case two negatives do not make a positive.

Robert

[Jason Topp]

I would like to see them create variety in the lengths of par fours.  Walking the course in a practice round last year made me realize that, right now, every single par four plays nearly the exact same length with the exception of 3. 

1 455
5 455
7 460
9 460
10 495 (severely downhill)
11 505 (severely downhill)
14 440
17 440
18 465

I think Oakmont in 2007 was a more entertaining venue and demonstrated the value of variety in par four lengths, even on a very difficult course.

[TX Golf]

What are the chances that Augusta ever goes back to a "no rough" all short grass golf course. I have never really had the chance to see the course play under these conditions as I was young when it was played this way. Didn't the lack of rough allow balls to run further into trouble (aka. water, trees, pine needles, creeks) and make the course much more special and unique overall?? How much of an impact has the first cut had on the scores since the change? The idea of a course just blanketed with fairway seems cool to me. I hope it is back some day.

[Phil Benedict]

What are the chances that Augusta ever goes back to a "no rough" all short grass golf course. I have never really had the chance to see the course play under these conditions as I was young when it was played this way. Didn't the lack of rough allow balls to run further into trouble (aka. water, trees, pine needles, creeks) and make the course much more special and unique overall?? How much of an impact has the first cut had on the scores since the change? The idea of a course just blanketed with fairway seems cool to me. I hope it is back some day.

Robert,

If they were to change one thing and one thing only, I would like to see them get rid of the first cut and return to wall-to-wall short grass.  That look distinguished ANGC from every other course in the world.  It would probably have less of an effect on the way the course plays that getting rid of the recent tree plantings and shortening up some holes, but that's what I'd like to see.

I'd be surprised if they did it.  Admission of a past mistake.

[Tom_Doak]

For whatever it's worth, I would agree with that Phil.  I think mowing the course back wide is the most important thing the club could do ... and the least likely thing that they WILL do.

[Pat Burke]

I've always felt that the "first" cut made Augusta look like a Nationwide Tour course on tv.
I would much rather see one cut length and the removal of a lot of trees to re-open some of the approach angles.  If the approach angles were available, the new length while still an issue would be less if a "precision" player was playing well, especially in firm conditions
Of course, I never played the tournament, and am commenting out of some other's experiences