what course do you give a Doak 10 to that Tom didn't?

[Rich Goodale]

Anthony-

No sure where you live, but we are getting together tomorrow in Baltimore to say good bye to one of Tom Doak's early works; Beechtree.  Folks from NYC, Philly, Tennessee, Virginia, Washington DC, etc.  You are welcome to join us.


Rich-

You don't think Pebble is a 10 also do you?

Do I need to say so a third time, Chip?  If so, YES!

I've played 9 of Tom D's "10's" and have been a member at one of them for 27 years, but if I had one more round of golf to play in my life it would be at Pebble Beach, and that is the ultimate "Mucci Test."

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Chip:

Further to Rich's post - and perhaps to give some credibility here - note I have played 8 of Doak's 10s as listed by him, a few multiple times.  So my assessment of Pebble also has good frame of reference anyway.

TH

[Bob_Huntley]

As much as I like North Berwick the opening hole would cost it a point on my evaluation



     I love that hole. An easy start to get you into your round. Plus it has great "Quirk Value".

Anthony,

I have played North Berwick perhaps twenty or more times over many years when carrying a low single figure handicap to just scraping it around.
I never found it an easy hole. I can live without its quirk.

Bob

[tlavin]

I second the vote for Prairie Dunes.  It's spectacular.

[Chip Gaskins]

Do I need to say so a third time, Chip?  If so, YES!

I've played 9 of Tom D's "10's" and have been a member at one of them for 27 years, but if I had one more round of golf to play in my life it would be at Pebble Beach, and that is the ultimate "Mucci Test."

Rich

Rich- Sorry I had missed the first couple of times.  I wasn't trying to be a smart ass.  I know you have been a member of Donarch for a long time and have played many many great courses.  Pebble doesn't get a lot of love on this site sometimes and was just wondering.

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip:

Further to Rich's post - and perhaps to give some credibility here - note I have played 8 of Doak's 10s as listed by him, a few multiple times.  So my assessment of Pebble also has good frame of reference anyway.

TH

Tom-

You guys have all the credibility in the world.  I knew you guys had played a lot of great courses.  I was just surprised you guys thought Pebble was a 10, thats all.

Chip

[Tom Huckaby]

Chip:

Pebble does gets some love on this site; it's been discussed countless times and while there are many who denigrate the course, it does have its supporters as well. 

Are you surprised it has any supporters?  If so, why?  Have you played the course?

It is I who am now curious.  You see, outside this forum, Pebble is pretty universally beloved.  It's odd to me that anyone would question praise of it.

TH

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip:

Pebble does gets some love on this site; it's been discussed countless times and while there are many who denigrate the course, it does have its supporters as well. 

Are you surprised it has any supporters?  If so, why?  Have you played the course?

It is I who am now curious.  You see, outside this forum, Pebble is pretty universally beloved.  It's odd to me that anyone would question praise of it.

TH

Tom-

I have played Pebble, as well as the same number or Doak's 10 you have, and just don't think Pebble is worthy of a perfect 10.  Don't get me wrong, it may have the best hole in all of golf (#8), the best stretch in all of golf (#4-#10) but the interior holes just aren't that good.  Some are down right goofy, like the #14 green, some are quite bland like 11, 12, and 13, and all in all there is no way I could see it as a perfect Doak 10.   With that said, I think Bandon Trails and Tobacco Road are drastically underrated, Merion and Pebble are overrated, and Ballyneal is better than Sand Hills so I know I have wildly unconventional views.  However, as you always say...we can agree to disagree, no big deal.   I respect your opinion on Pebble.

Chip

[Tom_Doak]

I would just like to say in my defense that most of the courses nominated here (Pebble Beach, Prairie Dunes, Royal County Down) were rated as 9's in The Confidential Guide ... and there is nothing to be ashamed about in being a 9, which basically means you're one of the top 25-30 courses in the world.

North Berwick was also in the Gourmet's Choice, though I only gave it an 8, because I know that it is too short and quirky for a lot of great players to take seriously.  It is on the short list of places I would choose for my last round of golf ... in part because I might still be able to post a good number there.

Some writer asked me years ago what was the difference between the courses which got a 10 on the Doak scale and those which got a 9, and I said that while I hadn't deliberately rated them as such, the main difference seemed to be that the courses which were 9's lacked the great set of short par-4's that pretty much all of the 10's have in spades.  And I still think that's true.  And I will just mention that Sand Hills and Pacific Dunes DO have that angle well covered.

[Tom Huckaby]

Chip:

I'd say that if it's based on the prevailing views in this forum, your takes are more conventional than not.  Yours is certainly the conventional view in here regarding Pebble.

But thanks for the clarification in any case.  You don't find Pebble to be worthy of a 10, and that is just fine.  I just got the impression you thought it was odd that ANYONE would think so.  Heck, ask 1000 golfers outside of this forum what the best course in the world is and I'd venture to say 600 at least would say Pebble Beach.  So that's what had me scratching my head.. that you seemed to question how anyone could think this.

But I see that that's not the case, so all is well and good.


TH

[Shane Wright]

Tom -

I'm sure this has been discussed many times on here and if so just say it, but on the note of Pacific Dunes, how many of the holes have "Keiser" tees?  The one on #18 fabulous.  We had to look for a little while.....

and the Keiser tee on #1 is quite the opening tee shot.  

Was this purely Mike's idea or what kind of input did you have in it as well?  If you are allowed to share?  

[Tom_Doak]

Shane:

Two or three alternate tees were suggested by Mr. Keiser, who did the same thing at Bandon Dunes ... that's why they are called the "Keiser tees".  But the two tees you mentioned were both my idea.  I just knew that they would not be playable if the wind was blowing from the wrong direction (the back tee on #1 in summer, the back tee on #18 in winter), so I suggested not putting them on the scorecard.  There is another tee up by the halfway house for #4 which falls into the same category ... it's not nearly as interesting of an angle from up there, but it would keep the hole a long par 4 for a Tour pro in a tailwind.

Mr. Keiser is more prone to suggesting alternate tee locations for the middle and forward tees.  There is one of them way up on the right on #5 -- I think it's still there anyway -- and another was to use the chipping area on #6 at Bandon Dunes for a back tee on Pacific #11.  Mike's suggested lower tee on #4 is now overgrown by gorse, fortunately. 

[Jim Nugent]

Some writer asked me years ago what was the difference between the courses which got a 10 on the Doak scale and those which got a 9, and I said that while I hadn't deliberately rated them as such, the main difference seemed to be that the courses which were 9's lacked the great set of short par-4's that pretty much all of the 10's have in spades.  

I don't know the courses, so just as a point of information: do Pinehurst #2 and Shinnecock Hills have a great set of short par 4's? 

[Tom_Doak]

Jim:

They keep adding length to Pinehurst and to Shinnecock for championship play, so a couple of holes on each have gotten out of that realm.  But Pinehurst still has its third and thirteenth holes, and Shinnecock has #8 and #13. 

Those are probably the weakest examples of all the courses rated as 10's:  St. Andrews, Dornoch, Muirfield, Pine Valley, Merion, National, Crystal Downs, Cypress Point, Royal Melbourne are all loaded in that category, and Ballybunion is no slouch.

[George Pazin]

And, of course, Oakmont has terrific short par 4s like #2 and #17.

[Shane Wright]

Shane:

Two or three alternate tees were suggested by Mr. Keiser, who did the same thing at Bandon Dunes ... that's why they are called the "Keiser tees".  But the two tees you mentioned were both my idea.  I just knew that they would not be playable if the wind was blowing from the wrong direction (the back tee on #1 in summer, the back tee on #18 in winter), so I suggested not putting them on the scorecard.  There is another tee up by the halfway house for #4 which falls into the same category ... it's not nearly as interesting of an angle from up there, but it would keep the hole a long par 4 for a Tour pro in a tailwind.

Mr. Keiser is more prone to suggesting alternate tee locations for the middle and forward tees.  There is one of them way up on the right on #5 -- I think it's still there anyway -- and another was to use the chipping area on #6 at Bandon Dunes for a back tee on Pacific #11.  Mike's suggested lower tee on #4 is now overgrown by gorse, fortunately. 

Tom - thanks for the info.  Yes, we did see the one at #4 but no way does it beat the normal "tips."  With the wind coming off the ocean that day, you could put it out over the beach, let it draw, and then run forever.

I really like both #1 and #18.....probably favored #1 a little more, but the views from #18 were spectacular.

11 is great just the way it is....

[Anthony Gray]

  Has anybody noticed all those houses at Pebble Beach? Houses...Houses....Houses...everywhere. A 9.9 at the most. 

[Bob_Huntley]

Have you played St.Andrews?

Bob

[Tim Leahy]

I have not heard Olympic Club mentioned and I do think that compared to the other 10's listed it is a 10 in my book. I also think that Riviera should be a 10. I can't afford a copy of the book but can someone quote TD's reviews of Olympic and Riviera from the Conf. Guide, I would like to know what flaws he found.

[Tom Huckaby]

  Has anybody noticed all those houses at Pebble Beach? Houses...Houses....Houses...everywhere. A 9.9 at the most. 

Anthony - we rebutted this the first time you made the absolute no houses statement.  You must preclude TOC (as Bob alludes to) but also Cypress, Pine Valley, Merion, likely a few others.

I'd agree with you that the presence of houses alongside a course is not optimal, but I surely wouldn't make it automatic grounds for dismissal.

But you can be excused given you get Pebble to 9.9 - which of course makes you one of the good guys as we will just round up.  

 

[Kalen Braley]

Pebble is such a dogtrack...I wouldn't be caught dead there..     

[Tom_Doak]

Tim L:  Oh, yeah, I gave Olympic a 10 too ... as far as you know ...

[J_ Crisham]

Tim, Olympic is a good course but not even the best in SF. I can think of 5 others I would play ahead of it in the general area such as, SFGC, Pebble, CPC, MPCC(either course) and the newly refurbished Pasatiempo. I would rate all of these at least an 8 or bettter. Olympic is a fine test if you like claustrophobic tracks-reminds me of a shorter version of Medinah-nice but would you want a steady diet of it?     Jack

[Tim Leahy]

Except for Pebble none of the others were deemed worthy of a US Open.

[Chip Gaskins]

I would say they all are more than worthy, the clubs just don't want a Open.  Why bother?