what course do you give a Doak 10 to that Tom didn't?

[Tom Huckaby]

ps re Pebble Beach - I shall be playing there in a few weeks.  It's a 10 for me also... and I can't see the current changes altering that.  But we shall see.

Tom-

Are you serious, Pebble is a 10 for you?

Chip

I am absolutely stone dead serious.  It is indeed.

I assume you take issue with that?

TH

[Chip Gaskins]

No, no, no issue.  Just intrigued.

Sorry if you took it as issue.

Chip

[Rich Goodale]

Chip

You obviously need to play some decent courses against which to compare Pebble Beach.  Once you do, you'll know that it is a solid "10."

rich

[Chip Gaskins]

Chip

You obviously need to play some decent courses against which to compare Pebble Beach.  Once you do, you'll know that it is a solid "10."

rich

True

[Anthony Gray]

Tom is a fine person and a great modern architect, but not the Messiah, and possibly even a very naughty boy........



  But who in the golf community can match his passion?

[Anthony Gray]

Tom is a fine person and a great modern architect, but not the Messiah, and possibly even a very naughty boy........

  Sorry about my unfamiliarity with the system.
But who in the golf community can match his passion? 

[Tom Huckaby]

Anthony:  a word of advice - Rich has played golf with Tom and knows him pretty well.  He was just having fun with this.

As are most of us....

 

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

Since I've now had a week's reflection since my round at Royal County Down, let me say this: I think Royal County Down is a 10 on the Doak Scale any way you slice it. If you don't like 17 and 18, then let's just say it's a Doak 11 adjusted for those two holes.

[Tom Huckaby]

That's great, Doug.  Just don't address it to me, as I haven't said one way or the other, and in fact repeatedly said I am NOT opining about that golf course.  My comments to Matt were about the SCALE and the proper definition of a 10, not about opinions on any particular course.  Please don't confuse him more than he already is.

 

[Rich Goodale]

Anthony:  a word of advice - Rich has played golf with Tom and knows him pretty well.  He was just having fun with this.

As are most of us....

 

Tom H

I'm only a 4 on the "Knowing Tom D" scale, if that.

Rich

[Tom Huckaby]

Rich, understood.  But 4 is enough to make the comment you did... and methinks Anthony took you as a zero.

Yours in Pebble Beach appreciation,

TH

[Doug Wright]

That's great, Doug.  Just don't address it to me, as I haven't said one way or the other, and in fact repeatedly said I am NOT opining about that golf course.  My comments to Matt were about the SCALE and the proper definition of a 10, not about opinions on any particular course.  Please don't confuse him more than he already is.

 

Post above duly corrected to protect the innocent....

[Tom Huckaby]

Doug - thanks.

Once Matt admits the error of his ways re the definition, then perhaps I shall indeed opine on RCD and some others (hint:  I'm rather with you).

Of course this means I shall never get to opine.   

[Matt_Ward]

Chris K:

Hold the phone please.

I read the "new" Doak 10 definition and my comments were a simple reaction to those words.

In summary,

I understand both definition of what Doak wrote -- the one that states ...

"Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get"

And ...

The updated definition is

"... that every hole has to add something of value to the course as a whole" (to be read in conjunction with the original definition".

Chris, if anyone bothers to read what I wrorte -- rather than what they think I did -- I simply said for the upteeeeeenth time -- that the 17th and 18th do NOT "add something of value to the course as a whole."

The premise of a 10 score -- is that such courses do not have glaring deficiencies that take away from the totality of the time spent there. That such holes so "add something." I see the 17th and 18th as being much less so than what comes before them. People can certainly have a different interpretation of those holes but my understanding of the Doak words is quite on target. The issue of my application may be a in doubt with a few people but frankly that's what makes for a good discussion.

End of story.

p.s. Pebble Beach is also not a 10 in my book for reasons I have stated previously. In fact, I'm closer to the numbers that Wayne M presented -- likely a battle between awarding either an 8 or 9 tops.

[Tom Huckaby]

No response to me, Matt?

You were wrong in saying a 10 must be bulletproof; and it's OK, because prior to this thread, you didn't know about the updated definition.  Simply admit that and this pain can end.  You seem to do so in your post to Chris.  I guess I'll take that... but well... it would be a great step in the right direction if you could plainly and simply admit this.

Then we can talk specific courses - which again, I have yet to begin to discuss - at least not with you.

Thanks.

TH

[Kalen Braley]

Jim,

NGLA is a solid 9.0263018815 give or take 0.0000000003 

When it comes to golf courses, that 0.0000000003  might not mean much, but when it comes to banking bailout plans, where do I sign up to get me a piece of that 0.0000000003 ? 

Shiv,

Not sure why.

.0000000003% of $700 Billion is only $210.  Sure I'll take the money too, but nothing to get excited about.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony:  a word of advice - Rich has played golf with Tom and knows him pretty well.  He was just having fun with this.

As are most of us....

 

  Rich,
  Thanks for the advice. I know that people have been critical of Tom. It seems that the people with the most passion get criticized the most. At my home course I get critized for the occasinal suggestion like "This course has played the same the past two years, have you considered moving the tee markers"..........My pro played eleven rounds of golf last year.... I hope you can see why I find Tom's passion refreshing. I love this discussion group. I wish I would have found it early. Does the GCA have an annual meeting? If not it would be nice to have one at one of the nicer resorts with golf and a couple guest speakers.

[Rich Goodale]

Anthony

There is the occasional official GCA.com event organised by Ran (is there opne recently announced at Cabo?) plus several less offical events that are organised by members on an annual basis, including three  "majors"--The Kings Putter (California); the Budapest Cup (Great Britain) and the Dixie Cup (Held in one of the States which were the victims of the War of Northern Aggression).  Numerous even less informal events are organised on an ad hoc basis.

All of these are open to all GCA members (and even non-members).

Keep your eyes peeled and attend any and all of of these you can.  You will not regret it.

Rich

[Chip Gaskins]

Anthony-

No sure where you live, but we are getting together tomorrow in Baltimore to say good bye to one of Tom Doak's early works; Beechtree.  Folks from NYC, Philly, Tennessee, Virginia, Washington DC, etc.  You are welcome to join us.


Rich-

You don't think Pebble is a 10 also do you?

[Tom_Doak]

Huck:  I understand the difference between opinion and gospel, and you know I was just teasing.

I agree with you that the DOAK SCALE is my own gospel, and the ratings in The Confidential Guide are my own opinions ... however, where we might disagree is in how other people quote the scale. 

Several people above have written "Course X is a 10 on the Doak Scale" for courses which I did NOT give a 10 in The Confidential Guide.  I don't think they should say that in that way, because it's misleading.  I think the only correct way to disagree with my rating is to say that "I [gca person] think Course X SHOULD BE a 10 on the Doak Scale".  Otherwise, someone is going to quote this web site and spread the ridiculous rumor that I actually gave a 10 to a course as flawed as Pebble Beach. 

[Kalen Braley]

I must admit this is all rathering disturbing news finding out that Doak isn't actually a God. Even Doak said he wasn't a Messiah or such nonsense.  How would you feel if you logged on to GCA.com one day and find out that you really weren't saved after all?

But then again, according to that little old lady in The Life of Brian "Only the true Messiah denies His divinity".

I guess the shrine at home gets to stay for one more day before utlimately finding the garbage can.  However, in light of these recent developments, I'm on the lookout for a new personal Savoir.  Please forward all vitas/resumes via IM or email.

P.S. Have 1 "Anatomy of a Golf Course" book for sale, will consider all offers.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom - oh I know you were teasing.  But Matt seems immune to such knowledge.

That is also a very correct admonition.  One should indeed state that it is his own opinion that any course merits any opinion on YOUR scale.

SO... in my opinion (Tom Huckaby), the oh-so-flawed but oh-so-overall-fantastic Pebble Beach does merit a 10 on the Doak scale.  Such opinion is certainly NOT that of the author of the scale.... which of course shows his flaws.

 

OK, so I could have left out the last few words.

[Chip Gaskins]

P.S. Have 1 "Anatomy of a Golf Course" book for sale, will consider all offers.

Kalen-

I have a Confidential Guide I will trade you for it, deal?

Chip

[K. Krahenbuhl]

Royal County Down is the only course that I have played that left me with a similar feeling to the other courses on the list that I've been lucky enough to visit.  I think it has a strong case for being included.

[Kalen Braley]

P.S. Have 1 "Anatomy of a Golf Course" book for sale, will consider all offers.

Kalen-

I have a Confidential Guide I will trade you for it, deal?

Chip

Chip,

How dare you tempt me like this...but alas you've caught me a weak moment.  Ok you got a deal.  IM me your address..