The Alotian Club

[Jim Franklin]

I am not sure how many people on this site that have played here, I do know a few, but this course was the surprise of my most recent trip. It will certainly go down as one of my top golf experiences as they really treat their guests like royalty. The clubhouse reminds me of someone's home, someone's really nice home. It is very understated and has a warm feeling to it.

The practice facility was first rate as well. Each member of our group was offered either Nike One balls or Titleist Pro v-1s. Pretty impressive. There was a second range for members or guests that offered Bermuda grass so you could practice on something else in case you were getting ready for a trip.

The course itself is one of Fazio's best. I know that is a tough sell here, but it is really that good. Most of Fazio's courses are played down the middle and to the green. This one allowed you to play more angles to get to some of the fairly wild pin placements*. To top it off, the maintenance of the course was ideal. Firm and fast and unlike a lot of his over watered courses. Plenty of elevation change to add to the variety and challenge of the course.

* As an example of this, the 18th hole offered a bunker on the inside corner of the dogleg that if you flew, you could hit the speed slot and gain a considerable amount of distance. With a slightly elevated green that had a bunker on the front left and a tucked pin, this was not the preferred route. The other option off the tee was to hit your drive at the bunker on the far corner of the dogleg that would give you an approach of 50-60 yards longer, but a much better angle to the pin. I took the long way and made par, my partner took the shorter way and made 5.

All in all, it was a tremendous experience.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is the club walkable and if so what other course would you compare the effort needed?  The custom range ball thing is kind of cool if you like to punish your assistants.  How many rounds would you guess get played on any average day, week or year....depending which scale you prefer.

Did you play the Blessings while in town?

[Peter Wagner]

Jim,

It's a nit-pik but I'm a little surprised they went with Bermuda grass for the other range.  I would think that the Bermuda would be transferred to the course via golf shoes.

- Peter

[Jim Franklin]

The course is walkable although hilly. There are shortcuts to tees from greens so it is certainly meant to be walked. I would not carry my own bag, but that's me.

I would think Augusta National, Sage Valley, or even Dallas National would be similar to walk. I walked SV and DN and they were good exercise.

On an average day, I can't imagine more than 50 or 60 rounds, but I have no clue. They have a few really awesome cottages that hold 2 foursomes each on three levels. I do not know what their membership is like as they were very quiet in regard to how many members, who were members etc...

I did not get a chance to play the Blessings as I was coming from a Kansas/Oklahoma combo trip and had to get back home.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,

It's a nit-pik but I'm a little surprised they went with Bermuda grass for the other range.  I would think that the Bermuda would be transferred to the course via golf shoes.

- Peter

I am pretty sure they clean your shoes pretty well and if you are practicing there, you are not playing the course. I don't know. Their fairways are Zoysia.

[TX Golf]

From what I have heard even less than 50-60 rounds a day. You could probably cut that number in half or by 1/3 during the poor weather months.

[Jim Franklin]

I think their poor weather months are December through February.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Jk
I have played the blessings...a really good golf course but tough as nails..a solid Doak 7

[Andy Troeger]

I'll admit to being the guy who made the 5 on #18...and that was one of my few "good" drives of the day. Jim failed to mention that he did get a rather fortunate bounce on his approach shot, however  

I'll second what Jim said about the golf course though, absolutely fantastic. I wasn't really sure what to expect, but the course certainly was more strategic than any other Fazio design I have seen. The wide fairways allowed for many angles, greens were set at angles to the fairway forcing some decision-making, and the greens themselves offered many different pin locations, some much tougher than others. The elevation changes were indeed dramatic without getting extreme.

[Adam_Messix]

The Alotian is walkable, although the course is a bit hilly in spots and the caddy is going to have your bag on a cart.  I would say that ANGC, SVGC, and DNGC are all easier walks than the Alotian though, with Augusta's being much easier due to green/tee nearness. 

I will nod in ascent to Jim's views about the Alotian, it's one of Fazio's best.  The greens are the most notable aspect of the course in that they are not as severe as Dallas National but very interesting with a lot of nice internal contouring. 

[Matt_Ward]

Jim F:

Be curious to know what Doak number you would give The Alotian and what Doak numbers you would give to other TF designs that you really liked.

Jim, you've played Caves Valley -- how much better do you see The Alotian?

Gents:

Quick question -- for those who have played DN -- if you have ten rounds between the two courses what's the split number between them?

T h a n k s

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

blessings 7 dn 3

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

oops, sorry...
dn 4 alotian 6

[Adam_Messix]

Alotian 7 Rounds
DN 3 Rounds

[Jim Franklin]

Matt -

I think The Alotian's golf course is far better than Caves Valley. The service at both clubs is A+ though although I will still give The Alotian a slight nod. I guess with less play you can pamper more.

I have played a wide variety of Fazio courses with Victoria National being my favorite. I just played Karsten Creek this trip as well and really liked that as well. It was far better than I expected and actually was totally different than I anticipated. I did not envision that huge lake and all of the trees. I am not a huge fan of a lot of trees, but, as you know, these really do not hinder play or conditions. Unlike you, I still like Shadow Creek a lot probably moreso for its architectural accomplishments than for its golf course strategy. I also like Wade Hampton, Sage Valley, Dallas National. The Preserve, Sand Ridge, Black Diamond, Hudson National, Flint Hills National, The Snead Course, and The Estancia Club. I would say The Alotian is better than those.

I would play The Alotian 7-3 over Dallas National. Again, I liked Dallas National a lot. Now Victoria National versus The Alotian would be a good match. It may be 5-5, but I probably would go 6-4 VN.

I know you really like Glen Wild, but I have not been fortunate to visit there yet. There are a lot of places that I want to see, but Glen Wild has not crept into my top 10 to see. The Alotian was actually my #1 goal to see this year along with Garden City and Chambers Bay.

[Jim Franklin]

Alotian 7 Rounds
DN 3 Rounds

Beat me to it. I was typing my answer and getting calls while you posted. I am glad great minds think alike.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

What elements at Alotian surprised you ?

In regards to Karsten Creek I'm glad you played it -- I really like the course because it shows a very spicey side of TF that many don't see with the overly beautified layouts he has become known for throughout much of the USA.

One final note -- Glenwild is a really outstanding layout -- there is short season there but the totality puts it among the very best TF layouts I have played and would be grouped with such stalwarts as Dallas National, Karsten Creek, Galloway National, to name just three quickly.

I don't see The Preserve, Hudson National and Black Diamond at that level.

Estancia is a fine layout and would be somewhere in between those two groups for me.

Final question -- do you see Victoria National as being playable for the widest range of players? I have heard that comment but from the time I played it I really enjoyed the course and just feel the combination of the land, routing and shot values make it right up there with the other TF courses I mentioned a few paragraphs ago.

[Jim Franklin]

The availabilty of angles surprised me. I thought it was more strategic than most of his courses and had excellent greens. Like Adam said, they were not over the top, but had some very cool contouring with some really great pin placements.

I played Galloway too, but many years ago so I forgot to list it. I liked that one too. I agree that Preserve, Hudson, and Black Diamond do not measure up to Karsten Creek and Dallas National, but I think Alotian and Victoria National are better. Plus I liked Estancia a lot too, right up there with Karsten and Dallas National.

As for VN being good for any golfer, I think so as they had a variety of tee boxes to choose. Play the right ones and the course is a blast. Play too far back and it will eat your lunch.

Have you played Flint Hills? I thought #18 could be one of the great short par 5s anywhere.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

No, have not played Flint Hills thus far -- had opportunity to go to Kansas this year but opted for Tetherow and Rock Creek instead. Next year when I'm in KS I'll find out if I made the right choice.

Possibly I may side track my journey to the Razorback State.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
How would you divide 10 more rounds between Alotian, Karsten, and FHN given the opportunity?

I think I'd go
Alotian 6
Karsten 2
FHN 1

You don't go wrong playing any of them, but I'm still as impressed with Alotian as I was walking off #18. Karsten lasted as my favorite Fazio course for 24 hours though!

[Jim Franklin]

Jim:

No, have not played Flint Hills thus far -- had opportunity to go to Kansas this year but opted for Tetherow and Rock Creek instead. Next year when I'm in KS I'll find out if I made the right choice.

Possibly I may side track my journey to the Razorback State.

You will enjoy the trip, but I think you made a pretty good call with Tetherow and Rock Creek this year. I am going to try that one in '09. I look forward to hearing what you think about FH and The A.

[Jim Franklin]

Jim,
How would you divide 10 more rounds between Alotian, Karsten, and FHN given the opportunity?

I think I'd go
Alotian 6
Karsten 2
FHN 1

You don't go wrong playing any of them, but I'm still as impressed with Alotian as I was walking off #18. Karsten lasted as my favorite Fazio course for 24 hours though!

Andy -

I think I would do 6-2-2 with The Alotian getting 6. I loved Karsten and Flint Hills, but The Alotian was certainly another level. By the way, you need one more round to make 10.

[Andy Troeger]

Jim,
How would you divide 10 more rounds between Alotian, Karsten, and FHN given the opportunity?

I think I'd go
Alotian 6
Karsten 2
FHN 1

You don't go wrong playing any of them, but I'm still as impressed with Alotian as I was walking off #18. Karsten lasted as my favorite Fazio course for 24 hours though!

Andy -

I think I would do 6-2-2 with The Alotian getting 6. I loved Karsten and Flint Hills, but The Alotian was certainly another level. By the way, you need one more round to make 10.

Oops...I'm surprised I didn't get a comment about that ND education for that one    Looks like I'd get to play the Alotian one more time! 7-2-1. Nothing against Karsten or Flint Hills as you said.

[Sean Leary]

I have not heard much about Flint Hills other than its high GD ranking.

Is it worth a day away from Prairie Dunes? I don't get out there as much as I would like so it is hard for me to justify going somewhere else, especially since I belong to a Fazio and his courses are all the same anyway.

[Mike Hendren]

http://www.arkansasbusiness.com/alotian/

Contrary to popular notion, and despite Stephens' belief that caddy programs are important to the game, Alotian will be a carts-only course out of consideration to the topography.

"I'm a little concerned about people carrying bags in hot and humid weather on a course this hilly," Stephens said. When Arkansas weather is cool enough for lugging bags up and down the hills, the likeliest caddies should be in school, he said.

Arkansas' state motto is Land of Opportunity because the first opportunity you have, you leave.
-Lou Brock

Arkansas is definitely the Land of Opportunity since nobody's done anything there yet.
- Dad