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Matt_Ward

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #25 on: October 03, 2008, 11:32:54 AM »
Jim:

How much of the service element impacted your impressions ?

Did the overall culture of the place transcend even the golf dimension.

When I mentioned the qualities of Galloway National, Glenwild and Karsten Creek the golf component is what lies at the core.

No doubt you are quite discerning but beyond the general praise for the course I have read very little on precise elements of certain holes and the nature of the routing, shotmaking variety, etc, etc.

Might be that you guys were seduced by other factors ?

Andy Troeger

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2008, 11:53:10 AM »
Matt,
Karsten Creek has some interesting design features, more than most of the other Fazio courses I've played, but it pales in comparison to strategy at The Alotian.

Jim presented the 18th as one good example with the speed slot on the left and the better angle from the right. Many holes have some significant slope and roll in the fairway, and one must challenge trouble or a fairway bunker to find a flat lie. The 9th was one of my favorite holes where you hit over a ravine to an ample fairway. The left side provides a somewhat shorter route again but with a worse angle to the left side pin placement. At 450, uphill, and against the wind, the second shot is everything you could want. The member tees are a more accomodating 385; they do have a way-back tee at 470 as well. The short par four 13th provides some interesting options--although its not drivable save for the longest of the long, the choice is there where to play to find a flat lie for the approach.

While the routing is also excellent, the greens make the golf course to me. On most holes, the greens have at least a few distinct levels some of which are very guarded and others of which allow some accessibility. The 16th is a nice par three with a diagonal green and creek, one must choose their club wisely and execute the shot. The 11th is a short par three with a small section of green at the back left that would make a seemingly simple hole into a tough one. A false front on the 12th is another nice feature  that repels mediocre shots--there is plenty of room to err long, but that leaves a scary putt. The pro actually putted off that green when we played.

Unfortunately I don't have any photos of the course to share. The ones in the magazine don't do the course or the elevation changes justice in the slightest.

The service is great, but its great at most of these top places. Quite frankly I'm just as happy parking my own car, carrying my own clubs, etc., but the Alotian certainly does provide excellent service and has a wonderful atmosphere. I've been to courses where the only thing going was wonderful service and conditioning; this is not one of those situations.

Matt_Ward

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2008, 11:55:35 AM »
Andy:

Pit Black Mesa v The Alotian Club -- in ten rounds what is the split between them ?

If you tell me it's at the 7-3 or more in favor of TAC then what you are saying is that such a course would make the top ten in the USA.

Andy Troeger

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #28 on: October 03, 2008, 12:06:20 PM »
Matt,

I think Black Mesa is a top 50 USA course at worst...with that in mind I'd probably go 5-5 or possibly 6-4 Alotian. I don't think its top 10 USA, but top 25-30 is reasonable to me.

Matt_Ward

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #29 on: October 03, 2008, 12:12:28 PM »
Andy:

Appreciate the candor -- however, if the split if 5-5 or even just 6-4 then both courses should make your top 25 listing -- right?


Andy Troeger

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2008, 12:47:48 PM »
Matt,
Having not played any of the top courses in the northeast, I'm pretty much guessing at the numbers, but the difference between the two would not be too large. Maybe 10 spots on the national list.


Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2008, 01:52:53 PM »
Matt -

The service was great as I said before but so is the service at Caves Valley. I also said that Caves Valley's golf course does not compare to The Alotian. I am sorry i did not give you a hole by hole description, as I just mentioned #18. Andy did a fairly good job of course description. There are plenty of options on each hole, good angles and bad, and some very good greens. Now I have played a wider variety of courses than Andy and would say The Alotian would comfortably fit in the 15-30 range.

It is a course that fits the Golf Digest model nicely. Great shape, great greens, and can play hard. Golfweek has a propencity for a little rougher around the edges course that play firm and fast. Well The Alotian played firm and fast, but it was neatly trimmed around the edges.

Mr Hurricane

Andy Troeger

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #32 on: October 03, 2008, 02:20:44 PM »
I have not heard much about Flint Hills other than its high GD ranking.

Is it worth a day away from Prairie Dunes? I don't get out there as much as I would like so it is hard for me to justify going somewhere else, especially since I belong to a Fazio and his courses are all the same anyway. :)

We played them both in the same day, its not as good as Prairie Dunes, but its certainly worth taking the time to play, assuming of course that you like the Fazio you belong to!  ;D

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #33 on: October 03, 2008, 02:25:06 PM »
I have not heard much about Flint Hills other than its high GD ranking.

Is it worth a day away from Prairie Dunes? I don't get out there as much as I would like so it is hard for me to justify going somewhere else, especially since I belong to a Fazio and his courses are all the same anyway. :)

We played them both in the same day, its not as good as Prairie Dunes, but its certainly worth taking the time to play, assuming of course that you like the Fazio you belong to!  ;D

It's Aldarra, so I do, and sounds like you did too!

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #34 on: October 03, 2008, 02:28:00 PM »
I have not heard much about Flint Hills other than its high GD ranking.

Is it worth a day away from Prairie Dunes? I don't get out there as much as I would like so it is hard for me to justify going somewhere else, especially since I belong to a Fazio and his courses are all the same anyway. :)

I certainly liked it more than Andy. I thought the 18th hole was worth the entire round. At least for me, a short par 5 that is challenging is one of the best holes in golf. I am not sure what course you belong to, but this is one of the better Fazios around for sure. I will say Prairie Dunes is special though. If the wind blows, and it will, bring a few sleeves. I did not find any ball I hit in the gunch nor any other ball anywhere near and you know that someone else had to hit it in there.

We played them both in the same day, its not as good as Prairie Dunes, but its certainly worth taking the time to play, assuming of course that you like the Fazio you belong to!  ;D
Mr Hurricane

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2008, 02:29:16 PM »
Sean -

I enjoyed Aldarra as well and think you will enjoy Flint Hills too.
Mr Hurricane

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2008, 02:38:12 PM »
Jim,

Glad you enjoyed both of my courses. Two good places to lose balls ;D

John Kavanaugh

Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2008, 02:39:24 PM »
Being a member of a Fazio myself I could not figure out why Sean would consider leaving Prarie Dunes, where his is a member, to go pay to play a nearby Fazio until I read this ditty on the Flint Hills web site:

"Devlin's design team included his wife Myra, who designed the clubhouse, guest house and founder's lodge; a son Tom, who built the tee boxes; and a son Tim, who was the head of the irrigation crew."

Devlin is the owner for those out of the loop and any man who would trust his son to build the tee boxes on the course of his dreams is my kind of guy.  Flint Hills is a must play in my lifetime.  That makes Flint Hills a Doak 9 by definition.

Sean Leary

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Alotian Club
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2008, 02:45:32 PM »
Being a member of a Fazio myself I could not figure out why Sean would consider leaving Prarie Dunes, where his is a member, to go pay to play a nearby Fazio until I read this ditty on the Flint Hills web site:

"Devlin's design team included his wife Myra, who designed the clubhouse, guest house and founder's lodge; a son Tom, who built the tee boxes; and a son Tim, who was the head of the irrigation crew."

Devlin is the owner for those out of the loop and any man who would trust his son to build the tee boxes on the course of his dreams is my kind of guy.  Flint Hills is a must play in my lifetime.  That makes Flint Hills a Doak 9 by definition.

JK,

Hopefully you and Mr. Hendren will come join me and we can hit and run both of them on the same trip ;)

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