[Steve_ Shaffer]

I understand it will be played tomorrow at Bala GC and that Jay Sigel will be attending.

Here's some info on Bala:

www.balagolfclub.com

www.broadcastpioneers.com/balagolfclub.html

[wsmorrison]

Ironically, one of the founders of the Flynn Cup is Andy Karff of Philmont CC.  There is no evidence that Flynn was involved in any design work at Philmont North.  It appears to be the design of Willie Park, Jr. (a letter from J. Wood Platt is the only proof to date) who was considered by the club to be the designer of Philmont's South course, which appears to be the design of John Reid.  Bala CC may not be a Flynn design either.  All we know for sure is that Toomey and Flynn planeed and installed an irrigation system for Bala.  It wouldn't be surprising to learn that Flynn did some redesign work at one or both courses, but there is no proof as yet.  Perhaps Joe Bausch can help us out.  I'll see him later today and see what we can do to get some answers.

[Mike_Cirba]

Inquiring minds want to know...

Indiana Joe(nes) has been strangely quiet of late. 

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Did you know that Ron Prichard spoke at the Flynn Cup at Philmont a year or two ago and told the audience that it "clearly is a Flynn designed golf course".  I was in the audience and refrained from questioning him about it.  Not the right time to do so.
Just an FYI
Mark

[Joe Bausch]

I will say this:  I have an article from 1924 that says Flynn did do the design at Bala taking it from a 9-hole to 18-hole course.

[Jim Franklin]

Is this a team event from Flynn clubs like the Tillinghast Trophy?

[wsmorrison]

It is an odd collection of some Philadelphia area Flynn clubs (Phila Country, Lehigh, Manufacturers, Rolling Green, Green Valley, Bala, and a couple more I cannot recall in addition to one club that is not Flynn at all (Philmont).  They play 12 man teams including at least 1 woman.  For a time, when I cared, I was trying to get clubs like Merion, Shinnecock, Indian Creek, Kittansett, Glen View and others in a rotation of far flung courses to participate.  Andy Karff showed no interested at all. 

So a couple of friends from Glen View purchased a trophy and I helped them start the Flynn Invitational open to many of the Flynn clubs--mostly top tier designs.  We're in our 6th season and play at CC Virginia next week.  We have previoulsy held the tournament at Glen View, Philadelphia Country, Indian Creek, TCC in Pepper Pike and Cherry Hills.   Teams also include Merion, Kittansett, Cascades, Lancaster.  It is a lot of fun to meet members with Flynn's architecture a common bond and forge friendships as a result.  We play 4 man teams with each playing with threesomes from other clubs in the 2-day event.

Besides the two rounds of golf, we have 2 lunches, breakfast and a dinner jammed in.  The team that recovers the best from a night of drinking, eating, lecture and more drinking ends up winning.  Philadelphia Country Club seems to be the best at playing while seeing double. 

Mark,

I heard that Ron made some such statement.  There may well be some Flynn that Ron noticed.  I am only guessing, since there is no documentation, but I believe Flynn did some redesign work there.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Wayne,

I think Lancaster, Woodcrest and Plymouth also field teams.

[wsmorrison]

Thanks, Steve.  The event is not much about architecture appreciation.  Tom and I gave a talk at one of the events, I think at Rolling Green in 2003.  Either we were off that night or people's eyes just glazed over at the subject of Flynn's architecture theories and practice.  It couldn't have been us, right? 

[Mike_Cirba]

Two courses I'd love to hear more about re: their architectural attribution are Phoenixville and Plymouth.

I'm betting Indiana Joe(nes) is already on the case. 

[Joe Bausch]

Two courses I'd love to hear more about re: their architectural attribution are Phoenixville and Plymouth.

I'm betting Indiana Joe(nes) is already on the case. 

I have been interested in both of these as well but I don't currently have anything specific to offer.  Yet.

At home I have copies of newspaper clippings on Phoenixville that I picked up last spring from the Chester County Historical Society.  No specific attributions are given, and certainly none indicating Hugh Wilson. 

The web page from Phoenixville CC indicates, curiously, a close tie with Plymouth:

There was a close relationship between Plymouth Country Club and Phoenixville Country Club in the early days of both. According to the commemorative booklet published by Phoenixville in 1990 on its 75th anniversary, when the new club’s golf committee, in 1915, tackled the task of laying out a nine-hole course, it got help from several Plymouth members who already had experience in this line of work.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Yes, I've seen that as well and am very curious who those "members" of Plymouth might have been.

I do know that when I asked Tom Doak about his attribution of Phoenixville to Hugh Wilson he mentioned that his source was one of the gentlemen you recently escorted around Cobb's Creek.

[Dan Boerger]

I remember being invited to a Ross/Flynn event a few years ago. Perhaps it was just Rolling Green and Aronimink. I believe they are the two most prolific architects in the Philadelphia region, so something like that could be fun -- even if were just GCA participants.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I understand from someone who was present at Pritchard's talk about Philmont that he offered no documentation to support the Flynn attribution. He may have used the "looks like a Flynn" theory.

[Joe Bausch]

I've now talked to the historian (perhaps unofficial!) at Philmont, Andy Karff, about a rather detailed article I found recently on Philmont.  We are going to meet in the coming weeks to compare the data in my article with what he has from their minutes and I assume what Bob Labbance unearthed.

This article from 1925 that I have says John Reid designed the first nine, and the second nine together with some help of a landscape architect from the Fairmount Park named Ogelsby Paul (!), and the North course was designed by Willie Park, Jr.  According to the article, the land that Philmont had acquired (the Jackson property) was a 'problem' b/c courses in the past had never been carved out of a forest and the Jackson land "it was necessary to cut thru woods on almost every fairway."  Apparently Park was reluctant to submit the design b/c of the overwhelming cost (tree and rock removal).  It seems the cost did not deter the club, but "Park's original design was followed only in a general way."

Henry Strouse was the director in charge of the construction work at Philmont, and "as the work progressed he changed the plans to meet conditions overlooked in the beginning..."  About 18 months after construction started, the first ball was played (this is in conflict with what Andy K remembered, which was more like 4 years).  And the course cost a rather unprecedented $250,000!

My article has a detailed hole-by-hole analysis of the course from early 1925, which I will try to post in due time.

[Mike_Cirba]

Joe,

Very, very interesting.

I should mention that Henry Strouse also worked with Hugh Wilson on what was a pretty significant change to the South course around 1915, which included two completely new holes and significant addition of bunkering, including some really wild mid-fairway diagonal stuff that unfortunately was not retained over the years..

The fact that Strouse and others at the club like Ellis Gimbel were so close with Hugh Wilson (Gimbel was part of the GAP Governing Committee seeking a public course that appointed Wilson) makes me wonder if the Flynn attribution didn't come from some construction and agronomic help from Wilson/Flynn.

Usually when there's smoke, there's some fire, and I would guess that the Flynn attribution that's been around all of these years didn't come completely out of thin air.   

Still..this is a very important piece of the puzzle and a wonderful find.   It appears that Willie Park Jr. was MUCH more involved in eastern PA golf in the early 20s than anyone knew previously, with your recent findings that Ashbourne, Schuylkill, and now Philmont North were all planned by the great man.

Thanks!!

[wsmorrison]

Good stuff, Joe.  Funny, I know a Paul Oglesby, onetime teaching pro extraordinaire at Merion, now the head professional at the Dormie Club.  Those lucky sons of a gun.

With the detailed hole-by-hole account of Philmont North, we'll be able to compare that to later aerials to see if any changes were made and try to find out by whom.  I think we know where to start with any guessing 

[Mike_Cirba]

Wayne,

We have some aerials from the late 30s, as well, so we should be able to get a good sense of the timeline of any significant changes. 

[Joe Bausch]

Andy Karff said Philmont has aerials from around 1925 and that the course has changed very little over time.  I hope I'm remembering the details of our phone conversation yesterday accurately!

[Mike_Cirba]

Some of the unusual bunkering that Wilson and Strouse did around 1915 is evident in the holes in the lower right of this aerial from the Dallin Collection at the Hagley (DE) Museum, also brought to light recently by Indiana Joe.   Prior, the course had almost no bunkering.   The holes in the upper left background are from Park's North course.   The pic is from 1924.

[Joe Bausch]

At some point I'll have a good scan of the article, but for now this will have to do:

#1:  par 4, a dogleg of 410 yards long.
#2:  pond(s?) on this par 4, 385 yards.
#3:  159 yard par 3 with lots of bunkers.
#4:  lots of trees on this 370 yard par 4, again well bunkered at the green.
#5:  a 426 yard par 4.
#6:  a narrow 379 yard par 4 with a pond in play on the 2nd shot.
#7:  long, straight par 4 of 465 yards with no sand at the green.
#8:  142 yard par 3 with bunkers left, front, and right of the green.
#9:  'serpentine fairway' on this 570 yard par 5.
#10:  345 yard par 4 with a green set up against some trees.
#11:  205 yard par 3 with water to be crossed.
#12:  sounds like a 495 yard par 5 with a creek in play on the right.
#13:  310 yard par 4 with a green well bunkered.
#14:  some type of dogleg par 4, and long (447 yards).
#15:  ordinary par 4 apparently.
#16:  sounds like a short par 4.
#17:  beautiful par 3 of 156 yards with a brook in front of the tee and bunkers left and right at the green.
#18:  340 yard par 4.

Based upon the scorecard below, it doesn't appear the routing has changed much at all (I played at Philmont years ago, but I think it was the South course):



Note:  it says two holes were added to the south course when the north course was built and the south course re-routed.  Obviously two holes must have been removed!

 

[Kyle Harris]

All/Joe,

Were those two holes the present 12th and 13th? Were the two holes lost the ones that were on the present driving range/practice facility? Lore had always been that the 12th, 13th and 18th were done by one of the Gordons at a much later date.

It also appears from the Dallin Aerial that there were more holes on the Pine Road/Tomlinson Road area of the golf course. Today's 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th are in that portion of the property with significant room for a hole between the 7th and 8th.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

The holes along Pine Road and Tomlinson are the South Course.


New slope/rating for North is: 71.9/133 from the Blue tees.

[Mike_Cirba]

Kyle,

That's correct..when the range got built two holes were lost and the Gordon's built the two northwesternmost holes up in the woods.

[Joe Bausch]

Two courses I'd love to hear more about re: their architectural attribution are Phoenixville and Plymouth.

I'm betting Indiana Joe(nes) is already on the case. 

Today I unearthed some articles on Plymouth.  One of them, from March of 1927 written by J.E. Ford of the Evening Bulletin, talks about the new nine holes being added but the course won't be ready to open till the fall.  It talks about some greens on the previous nine being redone, and how the ordering of the holes will change.  And the architect?  Francis B. Warner.

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