[Chip Gaskins]

Allow the ground game. Don't dictate it.

Can that effectively be done?

I realize you can probably do from hole to hole.  (i.e. #1 F&F, #2 soft, #3 F&F, etc...though that wouldn't be particualry fun or fair (not that it has to be) to me)

Is there an architectural feature/theme/characteristic that allows the same hole to be played a variety of ways.  Now I know at face value we all say "so and so green is open in front and allows the ball to be run in" but I certainly know that I would never try the running shot being I know the approaches are always too soft and angled to allow the shot to really be run in to the hole.

I suppose the best example of a hole that allows the ground game but doesn't dictate it is Bandon Trails #9.  A few others maybe, Sand Hills #8, Ballyneal #9, Augusta #5, Merion #6, Pine Valley #13, all allow both options.

Sorry I know I am rambling.  I suppose the point of the thread was not to debate which is better, more fun, more stategic, etc.. it was more to highlight that I have seen very few (if any) American courses that truely played as firm and fast as the average links course in Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland.

[JESII]

Chip,

Agreed on the last point there, but that is more geologic and meteoric than anything specifically golf related don't you think?

[Bradley Anderson]

I don't want to over-state it on here to the point of being a bore, but one of the reasons why we as superintendents have to water as much as we do is golf cart traffic.

You can bring many grasses back from dormancy (provided that you don't have excess thatch or compaction below the surface) without too much trouble, but when you put cart traffic on dormant grasses you can have damages that just don't allow you to maintain turf that way indefintely.

Not to take anything away from our bretheren across the water, but on the true linksland courses over there they have grasses and soils that have evolved in a much more temperate environment than here. And added to that advantage, those systems have not been worn away by traffic during those occassions when they really are severely stressed.

I wonder if golf carts could ruin a true linksland course quicker than irrigation? Probably.

[Sean_A]

I'm assuming you're making a differentiation between firm and fast, and just hard as a rock.

Ah, the joys of City Park Golf course back in the day, when if you had the temerity to land an approach on the green you were going 20 yards over the back. You couldn't make a mark on those greens with a hammer.

But even the local munis are softer now........

Kirk

Let me make it clear, I am promoting TRUE f&f when the weather dictates that it should be so.  I don't want to see f&f watered out of courses.  It is important that courses flow with weather because imo its economical and provides more variety.

Sully

I have heard great things about Huntington Valley being f&f.  I tried to get on last spring, but the chap I wrote a letter to (Jack something) didn't receive it until after I returned - I think he was on holiday or something.  In any case, he was very gracious and told me to write a again the next time I am in town. 


Ciao

[RSLivingston_III]

Personally, I think one of the best F&F courses in the US is Kingsley. There are only a handful of holes that can be approached with a running shot and unfortunately almost no one other than a few of us hickory player would bother to try them. But there are 2-3 that they average player might play.
I think most experienced players of UK links golf might realize that an airborne approach was a requirement for playing the majority of courses.

Jeff-
Full irrigation was first introduced to the US in the teen's not the 1930's.
Green irrigation was even earlier. late 1890's.

[Peter Pallotta]

Very good and interesting thread, thanks. I particularly liked Sean's post #9.

Just an observation: many of the posts seem to focus on the greens, but I think it's canted/tilted/sloped fairways that manifest the charms and challenges of F&F most comprehensively (on American courses, I mean - those without the agronomic advantages of the British links courses)

Peter

   

[Sean_A]

Here are some examples from one of the most browned out courses I have ever played.  Obviously, the club only has watering for the greens, but even so, this is quite extreme.  The greens look very lush, but in fact they are firm.  However, the maintenance meld is off because the fairways were running much quicker than the greens.  I spose the choice is to

1. Cut the water to the greens a bit.
2. Install fairway watering.
3. Put up with it until it rains.










I would rather the greens get less water, but I can understand the apprehensions of the club in doing this given the drought that was happening.  I spose all this points to courses using native grasses which are more able to take the extremes of punishment local climates can dish out.  I think it is very difficult to achieve TRUE f&f using grasses which can't take the heat - as it were.  Golfers have elevated the status of grass to some sort of rare flower.  For crying out loud, its really just a pervasive weed - or it should be this way if local grasses were used.  If there is one thing golfers are guilty of - its being overly pampered.  The amount of money and resources wasted in the name of good conditions for golf must be truly astounding.

People debate the whys and wherefors of how much of golf came to be what it is today.  IMO, the simple answer is because we had the money to make it so.  The same desire which fuels people to buy houses far too big for their needs, drive gas guzzleing whales and use energy like there is no tomorrow is what led us to our current maintenance practices.  It would seem we can't be happy just being fortunate to have time and money to play and enjoy what the game has to offer.  As with so many things these days, we have to push it to extremes. 

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Sean:

That is your opinion, and your more than entitled to it but it's probaby just HUMAN NATURE to push things to extremes. If that is true, and a cursory observation of human history would seem to tell us it is, then we can thank our lucky stars that we do go through cycles, and completely fascinating ones, frankly. The cycles within history, including golf and golf architecture's history is what is the most interesting to me.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Let me make it clear, I am promoting TRUE f&f when the weather dictates that it should be so. 


Since this thread is about F & F in America.

Where, precisely, does weather dictate that it should be so ?

Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas ?
Texas, Oklahoma, Arizona ?
Washington, Oregon ?

New Jersey, New York, Pennsylvania, Maryland and Deleware in the summer golf season ?

F & F in America is a narrow window of opportunity only achieved when Mother Nature allows for it, and a club strives for it.

Unfortunately, It's the exception, a rare exception, not the rule.

And, when you factor in Bradley's point about cart traffic, which is considerable, it makes it even more difficult to achieve.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()