Ballyneal

[Chip Gaskins]

Wow, can it get better than that....



Looks like a Doak 10 to me!



We had a fabulous time there last week.  The new facilities are fantastic.  The course was fast and firm.  The greens were as fun as I have played.  Better than Sand Hills!  The tee shots offered numerous options...If this product isn't a Doak 10 then I am not sure what we are looking for! 

Kudos to all involved with Ballyneal.  You have a world class product for a long time to come.  Everyone should be proud.

[Ryan Farrow]

Sure:







Its all relative.

[Kirk Gill]

Thanks for the pictures, Chip. If I remember correctly from some of your previous posts, you're a pretty good player, yes? What's your take on how Ballyneal would play for people of various abilities - the big hitter, the quality short-baller, or the generally not-so-great golfer? Your comments on Merion seemed to indicate that the course was very difficult.....how about Ballyneal? I'd be interested in your take.

Thanks

[Kyle Henderson]

Chip,

To answer your question, no. In my (admittedly limited) experience, nothing beats Ballyneal as a golf experience.

[Rob Rigg]

Chip,

Excellent pics - a couple of those are computer background worthy . . .

Is the course a fescue base throughout or are the types of grass mixed up?

How is the walk?

(The other Ballyneal threads have gotten so long I have not spent the time to read through them - my questions above have probably been answered numerous times elsewhere . . .)

[John Kavanaugh]

I'm starting to become concerned that the visual impact of Ballyneal is too consistent on a year to year basis, not to mention on a seasonal.  One of the great things about growing old on a more traditional treed course is the change of shot values over the years from the varying growth and death of vertical visuals.  As an example, does Sand Hills look or play much different than it did when it opened.  For a visitor this is a good thing, but...My concern is much like in any long term relationship, each party needs to change and grow old together or they tend to grow apart.

[Adam Clayman]

Jb. Not sure what you mean by the visuals and shot values. If my interpretation is correct you have nothing to fear. The range of visuals change everytime I go. Have you been there year to year? Whether its the color of the turf or its firmness its always different. Even day to day. Same with the shot demands.      RR. The walk is not hard or easy. I advise you to peruse the other theads for more specific answers. 

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

I have only been to Ballyneal the one time.  What I mean by vertical visuals is how the shot values around trees change year to year with growth or death and even in the winter without leaves.  Do you see a seasonal change in the playability of the vegetation at Ballyneal from season to season? 

Looking back over my golfing life at the parkland course we played together in Lawrenceville, shoeless if I recall, I have fond memories of how holes have changed due to both the growth and death of trees on each hole over the last 40 years.  It is no more the same course than I am the same golfer.  Do you see Ballyneal and other like courses evolving the same way?  If so, how?

I fully understand that using the Old Course as an example many golfers may say that natural stagnation is a good thing.

[Adam Clayman]

Yes there seasonal changes to the native. The wind and short grass also change. Not only day to day but intra day too. Ease your fear.

[Peter Pallotta]

John - for some reason, your last post brought your 'sound of silence' thread to mind. Less architecture requires less change; its quiet and subtle ways eventually opening the eyes of golfers to that which is subtle and quiet, including change.

Adam - just to say, it's been very interesting in my year or so on the site to watch the ever-growing appreciation for (and, I'd suggest, influence of) what Ballyneal is and does. I think you and John Kirk have had a lot to do with that.

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

Adam,

The pictures of the Grand Canyon reminded me of my love of shade and shadows.  Looking out my office window, even just now, much of the beauty of the landscape is contained in the morning shadows.  Can you produce any pictures of Ballyneal where shadows enhance the landscape?

[John Kavanaugh]

John - for some reason, your last post brought your 'sound of silence' thread to mind. Less architecture requires less change; its quiet and subtle ways eventually opening the eyes of golfers to that which is subtle and quiet, including change.

Adam - just to say, it's been very interesting in my year or so on the site to watch the ever-growing appreciation for (and, I'd suggest, influence of) what Ballyneal is and does. I think you and John Kirk have had a lot to do with that.

Peter

Peter,

It is not so much that I prefer sounds to be silenced as much as I want them to be dynamic.  It is the constant hum of mechanical devices that drown out the dynamic nature of both the game and surroundings that disturb me.  I do see this much the same with visuals.  I prefer the dynamic visuals of a changing environment created by such things as oceans, streams, shadows, seasonal colors, etc., etc., to perhaps the slow shifting sands of time.

[Ed Oden]

Adam,

The pictures of the Grand Canyon reminded me of my love of shade and shadows.  Looking out my office window, even just now, much of the beauty of the landscape is contained in the morning shadows.  Can you produce any pictures of Ballyneal where shadows enhance the landscape?

John, I know your question wasn't directed at me, but how about these?















Ed

[Adam Clayman]

Peter, I'm fairly certain I have little to do with the way Ballyneal is. Sure, I've made recommendations to concentrate on specific areas where the slightest tweak in maintenance makes a huge difference in both playability and experiences.

One of the reason I have no qualms about posting on BN is that my opinions were formed before joining. One of those opinions is/was that Tom put his heart and soul into this effort. The reasons for that should be obvious.

The reality is having read on this website for nearly a decade now, when I saw BN for the first time it contained all the elements and aspects that comprise the great stuff from other great courses around the world. Core principles if you will? One of my favorite correlations struck me upon seeing the 13th hole for the first time. I FELT it was an ode to dear ol' Max with it's three winking blondes sitting in the middle of the bar.

picture removed

[Tom Huckaby]

Chip and others - many thanks for another ode to a fantastic place.  Ballyneal is everything one could ever want in a golf course and a golf club.

Doak 10?  Doak 9?  Better than Sand Hills?  Hell, to each his own.  It's all gonna come down to personal preferences, experiences, whatever.   The arguments are futile either way.  For me BN remains a shade below Sand Hills, but if one wants to argue that BN is superior, well... the more this question gets asked, the more I am seeing it diminishes both great places.  So again, to each his own.

It's interesting that the more I think about it, having been gone a few weeks now... the more the place grows on me.  And I was pretty giddy while I was there.

TH

ps to Adam - that"picture" comes out as a red box for me - can others see that it?  God I love the 8th hole.. would love to see a good pic of it...

ps to JK - you asked if Sand Hills has changed - I have to believe it rather constantly changes, due to the wind and the harsh winters... in my experience the 12th hole was very very different Sep. 2008 from when I first went there (2004, I think).  The greenside bunker is a monstrous deep hell-hole now, whereas before it was kinda shallow and less significant.  That's just one example off the top of my head.

[Kalen Braley]

Tom,

Here is the link...

http://render1.snapfish.com/render2/is=Yup6aQQ%7C%3Dup6RKKt%3Axxr%3D0-qpDofRt7Pf7mrPfrj7t%3DzrRfDUX%3AeQaQxg%3Dr%3F87KR6xqpxQQQaxGnlxllexv8uOc5xQQQGJoGllePooqpfVtB%3F*KUp7BHSHqqy7XH6gX0QQ00%7CRup6G0P%7C/of=50,590,391

[TX Golf]

Kalen.... weird but it still shows up as a red box.?.?

[Kalen Braley]

Robert,

If you follow the link, you should see the picture.  Then when you return to the thread, the pic should show up.

[Tom Huckaby]

Robert,

If you follow the link, you should see the picture.  Then when you return to the thread, the pic should show up.

That's exactly how it worked for me.  Thanks, Kalen.

TH

[Jerry Kluger]

TH:  After Doak wrote the Confidential Guide he had two outstanding pieces of property to design courses - Bandon, OR and Holyoke, CO - with all due respect to TD can you imagine his rating those courses less than a 10 - I certainly believe that they deserve such a rating or can you point to something that is lacking?  SH is a 10 but does mean that no other course can be given a 10 - I think not.

[Kalen Braley]

TH:  After Doak wrote the Confidential Guide he had two outstanding pieces of property to design courses - Bandon, OR and Holyoke, CO - with all due respect to TD can you imagine his rating those courses less than a 10 - I certainly believe that they deserve such a rating or can you point to something that is lacking?  SH is a 10 but does mean that no other course can be given a 10 - I think not.

Jerry,

Are the properties of Barnbougle Dunes, Renissance Golf Club, Sebonack, St. Andrews Beach, and Cape Kidnappers not outstanding?

[Jerry Kluger]

I am not familiar with the other properties - Sebonack was a collaboration.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jerry:

It would certainly not surprise me at all if Tom Doak eventually does rate Ballyneal as a 10.  And obviously there are more 10s than just Sand Hills - he listed a dozen or so, didn't he?

I am not sure what your point is here...  since I posted somewhere that I personally found Ballyneal to be a 9, are you asking what I find lacking in it?

The answer to that is simple:  ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.  It is a fantastic golf course in every way. 

Here are the Doak definitions, in brief.  As you'll see, no course that's a 9 will be lacking anything.  9 is incredibly great.

9: Outstanding course. One of the best in the world with no weaknesses. Should see in your lifetime.

10: Nearly perfect. If you skipped even one hole you would miss something worth seeing. MUST see these courses to appreciate how good golf architecture can get.

[Jerry Kluger]

It just seemed that in your earlier post you were suggesting there could be a limit on the number of 10s - it would certainly be difficult to point to something at SH which makes it a 10 and which is lacking at BN and vice versa. 

[Tom Huckaby]

It just seemed that in your earlier post you were suggesting there could be a limit on the number of 10s - it would certainly be difficult to point to something at SH which makes it a 10 and which is lacking at BN and vice versa. 

I added to my post and we crossed... hopefully it makes better sense.

I am not sure where you got anything from me suggesting a limit to the number of 10s in the world.  I surely don't mean that.  Hopefully we haven't reached that and never will!

As for what makes SH a 10 and BN a 9, for me... well let's just leave it at personal preference.  As I say, these comparisons tend to diminish both places.  The point remains that BN certainly lacks NOTHING.

TH