[John Sheehan]

Has anyone played a Fazio with a centerline bunker or complex? I have not.

It might be stretching the definition of centerline bunker complex but the 15th at World Woods jumps to mind.

I would suggest Number 7 at Fazio's Mirabel.  I believe it would fit with both Patrick's and Sean's definitions of "centerline" bunkers.

As to Patrick's original question:  Yes, I believe they are thought to be quirky by the many golfers. And many think they are unfair. So what?  The strategic options they present, the risk/reward they offer - and the ensuing thrills - are reason enough to love them.  The three courses at Bandon are filled with them and yet we had to book a year and a half in advance to get a tee time for out latest outing.  So whether they are considered quirky or unfair, people are lining up to play them - at least in the Kingdom of Bandon.  They may be the ultimate expression of the "line of charm" concept.  They just need better marketing representation to be accepted into civilized society.   

[Bradley Anderson]

Are centerline bunker complexes deemed to be quirky and/or unfair ?

No they are not unfair? What do you mean by quirky?

If not, why don't we see more of them ?

They don't fit in the culture of most clubs.

Is it possible that the trend toward narrowing fairways will/has cause/d their extinction ?

I suspect that most of them were removed way before the trend of narrowing fairways began. But in either case, bringing them back involves restoring the fairway width, and that in turn involves some tree removal. It's very hard, by the way, for superintendents to grow healthy grass in areas where centerline bunkers effectively reduce the traffic-wear corridor by 50%. You have to do some clearing for building the center line bunkering, and then some more for spreading the traffic around.

Wild Horse and Hidden Creek use this feature extremely well, but, why isn't this feature almost a universal ?

Those courses are pretty wide open and sunny. But when you have a 30 yard wide fairway with a tree line running up both sides, there just isn't enough room or sunlight for center line bunkering.

[Scott_Burroughs]

Yesterday, I did a quick run-through of the photos of modern courses I have in my portfolio (~3-4 were sent to me), 68
courses in all (most not shown on GCA to date).  Most were builit in the past 15 years.  A pretty good sized sample, though still not random.

The results:

37 had at least one centerline bunker, either in the DZ (most), or affecting the 2nd shot on par 5's.  A couple separated split
fairways, when the optional, more risky 2nd fairway started many yards after the main fairway.

That would be 54% of the modern courses I have pictures of.

Of those 37 courses, they were designed by 19 different architects.

They were divided among 16 different states, 21 courses are west of the Mississippi, 16 east.

I did not include Forest Creek (North) (shown above by SPDB), which was in my portfolio, as that bunker touches the right
rough line, as my definition is to not touch the left or right rough lines or not to be a cross hazard where the fairway starts or not be greenside.

Ironically, of the 32 courses that did NOT have at least one, 2 were by Pete Dye and 4 were by Mike Strantz, both who more
used angled hazards/driving lines or large waste areas.  Also, 2 of this set of courses had at least one centerline tree or tree complex, but not bunkers.

I do not have pictures of my new home course yet (opened in 2000), but it has 2 holes with centerline bunker(s) and would make it 20 different architects.

[Tom Huckaby]

Tom H,

I don't think the argument is so much courses that have taken wide fairways and narrowed them, but that courses built since 1950 or so have generally had relatively narrow fairways.  I'm not talking crazy stuff like the <20 yarders you might see in a major, but even a fairway that's 35 yards wide is not nearly as wide as fairways used to be, and doesn't leave a whole lot of room on either side for even a small bathtub pot bunker in the center of that fairway.

Doug - that's great, but that's not what Patrick was asking about.  In any case I refer you to Scott Burroughs' post... and the testimony now of several others... methinks this "narrowing of fairways" and lack of presence of centerline bunkers remains something Patrick sees, but few others do.  And it's likely best to leave it at that.

TH

[Jason Topp]

As to width of fairways - the courses I remember playing in the US this year demonstrate a clear trend towards wider fairways on courses played by the general public:

Modern (10 wide – 0 narrow)

Paiute – Wolf Course – Wide
Vista Verde –  wide fairways
Tobacco Road – Wide
Tot Hill Farm – wide
Bearpath – wide
Chaska Town Course – wide
Stoneridge – wide
Big Fish – wide
Sutton Bay – wide
Kiawah - Ocean Course - wide

50’s – mid 80’s (6 narrow, 2 wide)

McCormick Ranch – narrow
Hazeltine – wide
Bunker Hills – wide
Kiawah – Cougar – narrow
Kiawah – Osprey – narrow
Kiawah – turtle(?) – narrow
Spencer CC – wide
Wayzata CC – narrow
Bent Creek – narrow

Golden Age (6 narrow, 2 wide)

Southern Pines – wide
Charlotte CC – narrow?  (Not sure)
Oak Ridge – Narrow
Edina CC – narrow
Woodhill – narrow
Minnesota Valley – wide
Minneapolis GC – narrow
Mendakota - narrow

One could quibble with both my characterizations of fairway widths and the time period to which I assigned each course but the trend is very clear.  I think other samples would yield the same conclusion.

Furthermore, both of the golden age courses I characterized as having wide fairways had them widened as a part of restoration/renovation efforts in the last few years.    Most of the others have narrowed significantly over time due to all of the usual factors.

I think the time period of narrowed fairways for non-professional tournament play ended in the mid to late 80's.  I know the fairways got wider in Arizona and Minnesota around that time.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom H,

I don't think the argument is so much courses that have taken wide fairways and narrowed them, but that courses built since 1950 or so have generally had relatively narrow fairways. 

I'm not talking crazy stuff like the <20 yarders you might see in a major, but even a fairway that's 35 yards wide is not nearly as wide as fairways used to be, and doesn't leave a whole lot of room on either side for even a small bathtub pot bunker in the center of that fairway.

Doug - that's great, but that's not what Patrick was asking about. 


Yes it is, it's exactly to the point, you don't understand the issue and concept in terms of Doug's response.

If fairway configurations are either build narrow or subsequently narrowed, say to 35 yards as Doug references, and even that is a very wide fairway by today's standards, you INHERENTLY can't have a centerline bunker complex in the DZ.

A 10 yard wide centerline fairway bunker would only leave you 12.5 yards to either side of a fairway that's 35 yards wide.
That's far too narrow to accomodate a centerline bunker feature.
Even at 45 yards wide, it only leaves you 17.5 yards to either side, and that too is too narrow.

In any case I refer you to Scott Burroughs' post... and the testimony now of several others... methinks this "narrowing of fairways" and lack of presence of centerline bunkers remains something Patrick sees, but few others do. 


If that's the case, and I doubt it, it's not because I have an acute sense of spacial relationships and what's happening in the world of golf courses, but rather, do to blindness on your part, and the mythical others you reference.

I was specific in defining "centerline bunker complexes".
Yet, you were willing to blindly accept Scott's definition, which differs from mine, along with his findings, absent photographic evidence supporting same.

If Scott would be kind enough to recalculate his findings based on centerline bunker complexes that ONLY exist in the DZ it would be helpful.  Then, we can evaluate whether the narrowed list of centerline bunker complexes actually qualify as such, in terms of their location relative to the center of the fairway, as opposed to offset bunkers, such as the one I referenced on # 10 at ANGC

And it's likely best to leave it at that.


Actually, it's best to understand that you're the ONLY one, or one of the few who think that there has been, and is NO TREND toward narrowed fairways, in California and throughout the U.S.

By the way, why did you choose to ignore the narrowed fairways at Torrey Pines and Riviera ?
They haven't slipped into the Pacific have they ?  Aren't they still in California ?  YES/NO 

[Bill_McBride]

Huckaby, I have warned you about this in the past, and you continue to walk blindly into these traps. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Huckaby, I have warned you about this in the past, and you continue to walkblindly into these traps. 

Bill,

I liked your choice of words.
I'm glad we agree on TH's powers of observation 

[Bill_McBride]

Huckaby, I have warned you about this in the past, and you continue to walkblindly into these traps. 

Bill,

I liked your choice of words.
I'm glad we agree on TH's powers of observation 

I was actually referring to walking "blindly" into a discussion with Patrick Mucci.   

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Another one of us blindly into the same breach  .

I believe you are engaging in what Wiki describes as hasty generalization:

Hasty generalization is a logical fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence. It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population.

Based on your reference to a few tour courses and some of your local courses you generalize that there is a trend to narrower fairways.  Scott, Tom, and Jason disagree based on their perception and experience.  I'd agree with them that I don't see that trend based on my experience.  In southern Ontario the majority of courses built in the last ten years are courses with generally wide fairways.  The older courses have narrower fairways and always did in my experience over the last 45 years of playing in this area.  So, in your sample set of local courses and Tour venues, you may be right while we may be right in our sample sets.  It's the generalization that is false. 

As to centre line bunkers, I guess you would have to define what you mean by rare.  If you want to talk solely of complexes of bunkers as opposed to single bunkers, then I'd say that complexes of centre line bunkers are rarer.  But, of all types of centre line bunkers (using your left, right, short, long in the DZ definition) I can think off the top of my head of quite a number in my area and in AZ, FLA, and CA.  Certainly not on the majority of courses, but not rare either.  Most of the ones I'm thinking of are modern too.

As a matter of interest regarding Riviera do you have aerials or other evidence of the former width of the fairways?  I see them currently between 30 to 45 yards wide from aerials.

Blindly yours,

Bryan

..............................

Ken M,

If you're still watching this thread, what happened on the 9th at your course to precipitate the narrowing?  Was it unique to that hole or pervasive over all 18?

   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Huckaby, I have warned you about this in the past, and you continue to walkblindly into these traps. 

Bill,

I liked your choice of words.
I'm glad we agree on TH's powers of observation 

I was actually referring to walking "blindly" into a discussion with Patrick Mucci.   

I was keenly aware of that 

[Tom Huckaby]

The only one blind here remains Mucci, if he continues to ignore that the fact that the narrowing of fairways at a few courses holding professional tournaments is not indicative of any overall trend.

He's also blind to all of new courses with massive width constantly being built, most of which feature centerline bunker complexes on at least a few holes.

But whatever... getting him to see anything other than what he wants to see is indeed futile.  So yes, I should stay the hell out of it.  But SOMEONE needs to show him the error of his ways!

TH

ps Pat - please refer to Bryan's post for a logic lesson you so desparately need.

[Bryan Izatt]

The only one blind here remains Mucci, if he continues to ignore that the fact that the narrowing of fairways at a few courses holding professional tournaments is not indicative of any overall trend.

He's also blind to all of new courses with massive width constantly being built, most of which feature centerline bunker complexes on at least a few holes.

But whatever... getting him to see anything other than what he wants to see is indeed futile.  So yes, I should stay the hell out of it.  But SOMEONE needs to show him the error of his ways!

TH

ps Pat - please refer to Bryan's post for a logic lesson you so desparately need.

Thank you for refocusing Pat.  It's bad enough that I throw myself in front of the train, but now you paint a bulls eye on me (to mix my metaphors) too.   

 

[Tom Huckaby]

Bryan:

Methinks we each ought to prepare for some colored text.

 

[Bryan Izatt]

Tom,

Yup.  No chance he'll be persuaded by our cogent arguments, I'd guess.  Perhaps if he remains silent, it means he concedes.  Now there, that ought to provoke a colorful response. 

[Jason Topp]

My same list with centerline bunkers identified to the best of my recollection.  Again, one can quibble about details but, at least for new construction, more centerline bunkers appear in modern designs than appear in at least the present version of older courses.

Modern (10 wide – 0 narrow)(7 centerline bunkers, 3 - no centerline bunkers)

Paiute – Wolf Course – Wide (yes)
Vista Verde –  wide fairways(yes)
Tobacco Road – Wide(no)
Tot Hill Farm – wide(no)
Bearpath – wide (no)
Chaska Town Course – wide (yes)
Stoneridge – wide (yes)
Big Fish – wide (yes)
Sutton Bay – wide (yes)
Kiawah - Ocean Course - wide (yes)

50’s – mid 80’s (7 narrow, 2 wide)(1 centerline bunkers, 8 no centerline bunkers)

McCormick Ranch – narrow (no)
Hazeltine – wide (no)
Bunker Hills – wide (no)
Kiawah – Cougar – narrow (yes)
Kiawah – Osprey – narrow (no)
Kiawah – turtle(?) – narrow (no)
Spencer CC – wide (no)
Wayzata CC – narrow (no)
Bent Creek – narrow (no)

Golden Age (6 narrow, 2 wide)(7 no centerline bunkers, 1 I am not sure)

Southern Pines – wide (no)
Charlotte CC – narrow?  (Not sure)
Oak Ridge – Narrow (no)
Edina CC – narrow (no)
Woodhill – narrow (no)
Minnesota Valley – wide (no)
Minneapolis GC – narrow (no)
Mendakota - narrow (no)

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Actually, they've been all the rage in recent years and all the cool kids have been using them.

Even Art Hills...

[Mike_Cirba]

Everyone except Rees, that is.

Judging by what I've seen from him, he's still locked into the idea of "progressive discipline", where wayward shots off the siderails get increasingly punished the further they stray from the straight and narrow.

That's fine as a legitimate philosophy, I guess, albeit unimaginative and ultimately uninteresting to play.   

[Andy Hughes]

Jason, I would say Tobacco Road has at least one centerline bunker complex, on #15.  And I am not sure what you would call what hole's like #16 or #2 or etc. have...

[Jason Topp]

Jason, I would say Tobacco Road has at least one centerline bunker complex, on #15.  And I am not sure what you would call what hole's like #16 or #2 or etc. have...

AHughes:

You could be correct.  I just could not remember them.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The only one blind here remains Mucci, if he continues to ignore that the fact that the narrowing of fairways at a few courses holding professional tournaments is not indicative of any overall trend.

Had you read my posts carefully you would have seen that I didn't limit my citations to courses that held PGA Tournaments.

It's been occuring at local clubs for decades.
Anyone can see it, unless your powers of observation are impaired.

He's also blind to all of new courses with massive width constantly being built, most of which feature centerline bunker complexes on at least a few holes.

Which new courses have massive width, are constantly being built, which feature a few holes with centerline bunker complexes ?

Centerline complexes, not flanking of offset bunkers, but, dead center bunkers, with prudent options to go to either side.

But whatever... getting him to see anything other than what he wants to see is indeed futile.  So yes, I should stay the hell out of it.  But SOMEONE needs to show him the error of his ways!

Well .......... I'm waiting.

ps Pat - please refer to Bryan's post for a logic lesson you so desparately need.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Another one of us blindly into the same breach  .

I welcome all victims........ equally

I believe you are engaging in what Wiki describes as hasty generalization:

Hasty generalization is a logical fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence. It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population.

I think the evidence is overwhelming.
You, Huckaby and a few other cretins are obviously out of touch with reality.


Based on your reference to a few tour courses and some of your local courses you generalize that there is a trend to narrower fairways. 


A few tour courses ?
How about every one ?
Some local courses ?
How about the majority ?


Scott, Tom, and Jason disagree based on their perception and experience.  I'd agree with them that I don't see that trend based on my experience. 


Then it's your stated individual and collective opinions, uniquivically, that fairways haven't been narrowed over the last 80 years.   Is that correct ?
A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

In southern Ontario the majority of courses built in the last ten years are courses with generally wide fairways. 

That's interesting and funny, you've engaged in the same generalization that you accused me of in an earlier paragraph.

And, what does "generally wide" mean ?
Could you define and quantify "generally wide" ?

Could you list all the courses built in Southern Ontario in the last 10 years ?
Then, could you let us know which courses have the same fairway width today, as they did on the day they opened ?

The older courses have narrower fairways and always did in my experience over the last 45 years of playing in this area.  So, in your sample set of local courses and Tour venues, you may be right while we may be right in our sample sets. 

It's the generalization that is false.

First you agree with me that older courses have had their fairways narrowed, then you tell me that the generalization that older courses have had their fairways narrowed is false.

Surely, you see the error in that statement.

To deny that older courses haven't been narrowed over the years is preposterous.

Whether it's due to financial, maintainance, irrigation or miscellaneous issues, it's incontrovertable, their fairways have been narrowed.

Huckaby chooses to cling to the belief that they've either remained fixed or have been expanded.

He's so young that I suspect his experience is drastically limited, therefore, his data base is miniscule.

But, even if he hasn't played Torrey Pines lately, surely he saw it on TV.

As to centre line bunkers, I guess you would have to define what you mean by rare.  If you want to talk solely of complexes of bunkers as opposed to single bunkers, then I'd say that complexes of centre line bunkers are rarer.  But, of all types of centre line bunkers (using your left, right, short, long in the DZ definition) I can think off the top of my head of quite a number in my area and in AZ, FLA, and CA.  Certainly not on the majority of courses, but not rare either.  Most of the ones I'm thinking of are modern too.

Let's start with the courses you're familiar with in Florida.
Which ones have centerline bunker/bunker complexes in the DZ ?
Not offset or flanking DZ bunkers, but, centerline, where the golfer has an almost equal choice of going left or right.

As a matter of interest regarding Riviera do you have aerials or other evidence of the former width of the fairways?  I see them currently between 30 to 45 yards wide from aerials.

Which fairways are 45 yards wide ?

Blindly yours,
Bryan

Not to worry, TEPaul will lend you and Huckaby his faithful guidedog, Coorshaw.

[Tom Huckaby]

Pat:

Uncle.  You are completely obtuse and get nothing about what I, or several others, are saying here.  Enjoy your delusions of trends of narrowing.  I'll meet you in the real world when you care to get here.

TH

[Bryan Izatt]

Patrick,

Another one of us blindly into the same breach  .

I welcome all victims........ equally

I believe you are engaging in what Wiki describes as hasty generalization:

Hasty generalization is a logical fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence. It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population.

I think the evidence is overwhelming.  Of course you do.  But where is your evidence?
You, Huckaby and a few other cretins are obviously out of touch with reality. Perhaps with your reality.  But then you might be delusional.


Based on your reference to a few tour courses and some of your local courses you generalize that there is a trend to narrower fairways. 


A few tour courses ?
How about every one ? Every one?  Reread your list.  It wasn't inclusive of all. And, where is your evidence that they've all been narrowed.  Since when?
Some local courses ?
How about the majority ? Your reading comprehension is slipping.  I said "your" local courses.  Are you still talking about your local courses?  How many would that be?  What would a majority of them be?  51%?  Please list them so we know you're sample size.  Or are you saying all local courses in the U.S.?


Scott, Tom, and Jason disagree based on their perception and experience.  I'd agree with them that I don't see that trend based on my experience. 


Then it's your stated individual and collective opinions, uniquivically, that fairways haven't been narrowed over the last 80 years.   Is that correct ?  Now you're going to change your supposition.  Are you saying that the trend only applies to courses that are 80 years old?  Could you list for us the courses to which you are referring.
A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

In southern Ontario the majority of courses built in the last ten years are courses with generally wide fairways. 

That's interesting and funny, you've engaged in the same generalization that you accused me of in an earlier paragraph.

And, what does "generally wide" mean ?
Could you define and quantify "generally wide" ?  By wide, I mean fairways in excess of 40 yards

Could you list all the courses built in Southern Ontario in the last 10 years ?
Then, could you let us know which courses have the same fairway width today, as they did on the day they opened ?  I could, but you first.  It is your premise that we're questioning.

The older courses have narrower fairways and always did in my experience over the last 45 years of playing in this area.  So, in your sample set of local courses and Tour venues, you may be right while we may be right in our sample sets. 

It's the generalization that is false.

First you agree with me that older courses have had their fairways narrowed, Patrick, please reread.  I said older courses were narrower than modern courses in my area, not that the old one's had been narrowed then you tell me that the generalization that older courses have had their fairways narrowed is false.

Surely, you see the error in that statement. Your misreading of my statements leads to a false premise and a false conclusion.


To deny that older courses haven't been narrowed over the years is preposterous.

Whether it's due to financial, maintainance, irrigation or miscellaneous issues, it's incontrovertable, their fairways have been narrowed.

Huckaby chooses to cling to the belief that they've either remained fixed or have been expanded.

He's so young that I suspect his experience is drastically limited, therefore, his data base is miniscule.

But, even if he hasn't played Torrey Pines lately, surely he saw it on TV.

As to centre line bunkers, I guess you would have to define what you mean by rare.  If you want to talk solely of complexes of bunkers as opposed to single bunkers, then I'd say that complexes of centre line bunkers are rarer.  But, of all types of centre line bunkers (using your left, right, short, long in the DZ definition) I can think off the top of my head of quite a number in my area and in AZ, FLA, and CA.  Certainly not on the majority of courses, but not rare either.  Most of the ones I'm thinking of are modern too.

Let's start with the courses you're familiar with in Florida.
Which ones have centerline bunker/bunker complexes in the DZ ?
Not offset or flanking DZ bunkers, but, centerline, where the golfer has an almost equal choice of going left or right.

Here's two to chew on.  Miromar Lakes by Art Hills and Venetian Golf and River Club by Chip Powell.  You really need to get out and about in FL.







As a matter of interest regarding Riviera do you have aerials or other evidence of the former width of the fairways?  I see them currently between 30 to 45 yards wide from aerials.

Which fairways are 45 yards wide ?

This one.  Although I misrepresented it. It's really only 43 and a bit yards wide.




Blindly yours,
Bryan

Not to worry, TEPaul will lend you and Huckaby his faithful guidedog, Coorshaw.

No need.  But, I thought you and TEP had joint custody of Coorshaw 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Another one of us blindly into the same breach  .

I welcome all victims........ equally

I believe you are engaging in what Wiki describes as hasty generalization:

Hasty generalization is a logical fallacy of faulty generalization by reaching an inductive generalization based on insufficient evidence. It commonly involves basing a broad conclusion upon the statistics of a survey of a small group that fails to sufficiently represent the whole population.

I think the evidence is overwhelming.  Of course you do.  But where is your evidence?
You, Huckaby and a few other cretins are obviously out of touch with reality. Perhaps with your reality.  But then you might be delusional.


Based on your reference to a few tour courses and some of your local courses you generalize that there is a trend to narrower fairways. 


A few tour courses ?
How about every one ? Every one?  Reread your list.  It wasn't inclusive of all.

I never offered that brief list as the definitive, all encompassing list, only a list of some courses that would be easily recognized.

And, where is your evidence that they've all been narrowed. 

The evidence is simple, it's my experience in playing them over the years and noticing the clear difference in fairway width.


Since when?


What difference does it make, narrower is narrower.  It doesn't matter if they were narrowed last year, five years ago or ten or twenty years ago, they're narrower than originally constructed.

Some local courses ?
How about the majority ?
Your reading comprehension is slipping.  I said "your" local courses.  Are you still talking about your local courses?  How many would that be?  What would a majority of them be?  51%?  Please list them so we know you're sample size.  Or are you saying all local courses in the U.S.?

Pick a number, 25, 50, 100.
If all, or the great majority of the local courses I've played in NY, NJ, PA, CT and FL have been narrowed, and, all, or the great majority of tour courses have been narrowed, including the British Open, U.S. Open, PGA courses and ANGC, then I believe it's safe to say that that random sampling is sufficient to broaden into a generality.

I haven't seen one golf course widen their fairways beyond the original configuration, HAVE YOU ?


Scott, Tom, and Jason disagree based on their perception and experience.  I'd agree with them that I don't see that trend based on my experience. 


Then it's your stated individual and collective opinions, uniquivically, that fairways haven't been narrowed over the last 80 years.   Is that correct ?  Now you're going to change your supposition.  Are you saying that the trend only applies to courses that are 80 years old?  Could you list for us the courses to which you are referring.

I'm not changing the supposition, you've made your statement, I summarized it and asked you to either deny or reaffirm it.  Yet, you blinked.  You balked and refused to support your position.

The golfing universe, save for a few cretins on GCA.com sees the trend, but, because four blind mice don't, doesn't mean it hasn't happened and that it won't continue to happen.

A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

In southern Ontario the majority of courses built in the last ten years are courses with generally wide fairways. 

That's interesting and funny, you've engaged in the same generalization that you accused me of in an earlier paragraph.

And, what does "generally wide" mean ?
Could you define and quantify "generally wide" ? 
By wide, I mean fairways in excess of 40 yards

Could you list all the courses built in Southern Ontario in the last 10 years ?
Then, could you let us know which courses have the same fairway width today, as they did on the day they opened ? 
I could, but you first.  It is your premise that we're questioning.

Your inability to answer the question says it all.

The older courses have narrower fairways and always did in my experience over the last 45 years of playing in this area.  So, in your sample set of local courses and Tour venues, you may be right while we may be right in our sample sets. 

It's the generalization that is false.

First you agree with me that older courses have had their fairways narrowed,
Patrick, please reread.  I said older courses were narrower than modern courses in my area, not that the old one's had been narrowed

It's clear that you're not at all familiar with older courses outside of your area.
To state that older courses were narrower than modern courses is to be unfamiliar with history.
Read CBM and Travis for reference

then you tell me that the generalization that older courses have had their fairways narrowed is false.

Surely, you see the error in that statement.
Your misreading of my statements leads to a false premise and a false conclusion.

I'm not misreading anything.
You're in denial with respect to width, the history of width, and the devolution of wide fairways at the hands of many influences.

To state, as you and others have done, that fairway widths haven't narrowed is absurd.

That would mean that they've either remained static, or have gotten wider.

I know you and others want to win at all costs, but, pick a position that you can defend with either the facts or logic.  So far you have neither.

To deny that older courses haven't been narrowed over the years is preposterous.

Whether it's due to financial, maintainance, irrigation or miscellaneous issues, it's incontrovertable, their fairways have been narrowed.

Huckaby chooses to cling to the belief that they've either remained fixed or have been expanded.

He's so young that I suspect his experience is drastically limited, therefore, his data base is miniscule.

But, even if he hasn't played Torrey Pines lately, surely he saw it on TV.

As to centre line bunkers, I guess you would have to define what you mean by rare.  If you want to talk solely of complexes of bunkers as opposed to single bunkers, then I'd say that complexes of centre line bunkers are rarer.  But, of all types of centre line bunkers (using your left, right, short, long in the DZ definition) I can think off the top of my head of quite a number in my area and in AZ, FLA, and CA.  Certainly not on the majority of courses, but not rare either.  Most of the ones I'm thinking of are modern too.

Let's start with the courses you're familiar with in Florida.
Which ones have centerline bunker/bunker complexes in the DZ ?
Not offset or flanking DZ bunkers, but, centerline, where the golfer has an almost equal choice of going left or right.

Here's two to chew on.  Miromar Lakes by Art Hills and Venetian Golf and River Club by Chip Powell.  You really need to get out and about in FL.






With a thousand golf courses in Florida, that's 18 thousand holes, you can only come up with two examples.

Would you say that 2 out of 18,000 qualifies the number as rare ?


As a matter of interest regarding Riviera do you have aerials or other evidence of the former width of the fairways?  I see them currently between 30 to 45 yards wide from aerials.

Which fairways are 45 yards wide ?

This one.  Although I misrepresented it. It's really only 43 and a bit yards wide.





That measurement doesn't look like it's in the DZ.
It looks to be short of the DZ.
You may recall I qualified the issue in the context of the bunkers being in the center of the DZ.

Could you find a fairway that measures 45 yards, which is what you stated ?

Blindly yours,
Bryan

Not to worry, TEPaul will lend you and Huckaby his faithful guidedog, Coorshaw.

No need.  But, I thought you and TEP had joint custody of Coorshaw 


This is where your reading and reading comprehension skills are lacking.

I DON'T have custody of Coorshaw, joint or otherwise.

I am however, TEPaul's Legal CUSTODIAN.

I promised his dear Mother that I would look after him, educate and guide him.

In light of the difficulty of that task, I've asked for an increase in my fees.

Now do you understand ?

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