Why didn't they use centreline bunkers?

[Chris Kane]

In Pat Mucci's excellent thread on centreline bunkers, a number of people have commented that their use appears to be more widespread in courses built today than in classic-era courses.

Centreline bunkers are most famous at the Old Course, as are many other quirky features.  Why is it that other examples of quirk, character and contour (to borrow Pat's phrase) were so extensively utilised during the golden age, but centreline bunkers weren't?

[Bill_McBride]

Maybe one reason is that fairways were F&F and even bunkers on the edges of fairways gathered even slightly errant tee balls.  In those days they actually mowed fairway cut right up to the entrance to a bunker, imagine that!


There were some famous centerline bunkers - that big thing at Royal St George, the centerline bunker at Woking.....I'm sure there are many more examples.  I think today's examples are based on historic models, not just TOC.

[Mark_F]

Perhaps because most of the centreline bunkers on TOC are blind from the tee, and that's a quirk too far.

[Mark_Fine]

Chris,
I have not looked at that other thread but I would beg to differ with those who think centerline hazards are used more today then they were in the "classic era".  Many of those "centerline" hazards simply disappeared over the years for all kinds of reasons.  I could post many examples (some very dramatic). 
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris Kane,

I've seen a number of old aerials of "golden age" golf courses where centerline bunkers are present on more than one hole, yet, those bunkers no longer exist.

I think the depression, WWII, fluctuating club finances, maintainance issues and membership whims had a lot to do with their removal over the years.

I would argue that they were more popular during the "golden age" and that for most golfers they remain "unpopular" today. 

[JMorgan]

A great hole made so much more fun by the centerline bunkers.

(The short par 4 #13 at Leatherstocking.)

[JMorgan]

Canoe Brook #1 and #10 had centerline bunkers, now part of the Short Hills Mall.

[JMorgan]

Old Westbury and Queens Valley (NLE) had more than a few, as did Lido and the Links.

[paul cowley]

A great hole made so much more fun by the centerline bunkers.

(The short par 4 #13 at Leatherstocking.)

damn....my first one putt eagle hole!

[John Sheehan]

Chris,
I have not looked at that other thread but I would beg to differ with those who think centerline hazards are used more today then they were in the "classic era".  Many of those "centerline" hazards simply disappeared over the years for all kinds of reasons.  I could post many examples (some very dramatic). 
Mark

Mark,
I for one would love to hear of more examples of centerline or cross-bunkers that have dispappeared, especially if you have any old/new photographs to compare.

And a "thank you" to Chris Kane for starting this thread. 

I had no idea that they were more prevalent and had died out or dispappeared for the many reasons listed by responders.  It all makes sense of course.  One of the very first things that got me interested in GCA was discovering a grassy depression I had failed to ever notice on a course I had played many times.  It turned out to be an old bunker that had been allowed to grow over.

From the moment I first encountered a cross-bunker I loved them.  I always wondered why they weren't more prevalent.

[Ally Mcintosh]

A great hole made so much more fun by the centerline bunkers.

(The short par 4 #13 at Leatherstocking.)

tell me more about this hole... from the tee, it looks like this bunker just extends in from the entire left side of the fairway...

there are one or two posts on the other thread that do the same... i.e. there is a bunker directly on the line of instinct (in the centre) but it is extended in from one side of the fairway / rough...

those are not centreline bunkers in my opinion... they are obviously better than cross bunkers in that you can usually get round one side of them (as well as over) but for me a centreline bunker absolutely MUST have fairway playing to BOTH sides of it, giving strategic options depending on your choice of shot...

of course, i may be viewing that hole wrong... in which case, it is an even better hole because i can't work out what to do from the tee...

[JMorgan]

Ally, the bunker on the left is a second bunker beyond the centerline bunker.   

[Thomas MacWood]

Chris
I'm not sure I would agree centerline bunkers were not used back then. One of the most well documented events of that era was the planting of the bunker at the 4th at Woking. Woking had a big influence on several architects including Simpson, and he planted his fair share. Some others that come to mind: Macdonald & Raynor, Campbell, Hutchison & Hotchkin, MacKenzie, Tillinghast, Ross, Travis, Strong, Colt and Park.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ally, the bunker on the left is a second bunker beyond the centerline bunker.   

Ah, OK, that makes a bit of sense then... But is there an incentive to go left? Easier approach? Can you actually hit it past the first bunker down the left and keep it on fairway short of the second bunker? It looks really tight....

[Scott Witter]

I suspect partly that in many cases in the old days that the centerline bunkers may have in fact been more along the lines of cross-bunkers, placed truly way out in the L.O.P. but due to the broad width of the holes and FW's, they may have seemd like centerline bunkers, maybe yes, maybe no?  As we now see more of this design feature they appear to be 'real' centerline hazards because the FW's are fairly narrow...I wonder, if some of these holes were widened, more along the lines of the old days, would they be called good ole fashion cross-bunkers?  Just a thought

[Ally Mcintosh]

I suspect partly that in many cases in the old days that the centerline bunkers may have in fact been more along the lines of cross-bunkers, placed truly way out in the L.O.P. but due to the broad width of the holes and FW's, they may have seemd like centerline bunkers, maybe yes, maybe no?  As we now see more of this design feature they appear to be 'real' centerline hazards because the FW's are fairly narrow...I wonder, if some of these holes were widened, more along the lines of the old days, would they be called good ole fashion cross-bunkers?  Just a thought

Surely you have this the wrong way round, Scott?... (or else I do not understand your point)... Wide fairways are needed for effective centreline bunkers... as fairways narrow, they will act as cross-bunkers from a playability perspective.

[JMorgan]

Ally, the bunker on the left is a second bunker beyond the centerline bunker.   

Ah, OK, that makes a bit of sense then... But is there an incentive to go left? Easier approach? Can you actually hit it past the first bunker down the left and keep it on fairway short of the second bunker? It looks really tight....

It's not a great picture.  If you look closely, you can see the flag just to the right of where the two bunkers appear to merge, so the temptation is towards the left-center.

[Scott Witter]

Ally:

Thanks for that   I knew I shouldn't have attempted an intelligent post before I had my coffee

[john_stiles]

At one time,   in the early days,  ANGC had quite a few centerline bunkers, namely at  #2, #8, #9, #11, and the infamous monster at #14.

Ross used centerline bunkers, even if the infamous top shot bunkers are not considered.   Seminole #16, #18 on the plans anyway, Holston Hills #5 and #12, etc., etc.

I think 'they' used centerline bunkers.

Another question might be....How many centerline bunkers were removed ?

[Mark_Fine]

“The direct line to the hole is the line of instinct and to make a good hole you must break up that line to create the line of charm."
M. Behr

I think he (as well as many others of the time) had centerline hazards in mind 

[Jason Topp]

The answer could be that such bunkers were eliminated.  My course had 2 in the original 9 holes that were taken out

1940 aerial  (current holes 10 (Hidden by the writing) and a monster on current hole 18.:



When the course expanded to 18 holes there was an interesting short par four with a bunch of huge centerline bunkers at the bottom left of the picture:

1945 (approximate):



That hole was eliminated when the course expanded to some additional land.