Did Tillinghast ever design a mediocre or poor 18 hole golf course ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Many architects have.

But, I haven't heard anyone make that statement about Tillinghast.

What design of his is low man on the totem pole ?

And why ?

[Sam Morrow]

Tillinghast didn't have much to work with but his work at Corsicana (TX) Country Club wouldn't rank amongst his best.  In 1926 he came to Corsicana to build the back 9 and rework the original 9 done in 1917 by Willie Lorimer. I think most would say that the front 9 is much better than the back. Of course it's sad that the original 10th green is no longer there (it was at one time said to be the biggest green in America).

[Bart Bradley]

Pat:

Johnson City Country Club in Johnson City, TN claims to be a Tillinghast design.  I cannot give a critique...I have not played it.  Many people tell me that it is mediocre.  Maybe someone who knows more than me can flesh out some details.

Bart

[wsmorrison]

Tillinghast's design for the Aronimink course (1916), prior to their move and Ross's design in Newtown Square, looks to be mediocre at best.

[Cliff Hamm]

Shawnee in Pennsylvania, his first design, would fit the mediocre description.

[Phil_the_Author]

With the possible exception of George Crump and his one-hit wonder, every single architect of any note has designed a mediocre to poor course.

The problem with identifying the 'lesser' designs of a particular architect is caused by time and how it's passage reflects the view of the greatness of the architect.

For example, there are literally thousands of pieces of paper with a few squiggles and a signature by Picasso that command tremendous amounts of money, not because of their artistic merit but because of the historical importance of the signature. The same is true of golf courses designed and/or built by particular architects.

We see this today in the commissioning of golf course designs. Certain aechitects can sharge a great deal more money for creating a course on the same property that another architect would charge simply because of who they are.

Likewise, in identifying the 'lesser' works of an architect such as Tilly, Ross, Mackenzie, etc..., the very fact of the name of the architect places that course in a different position of value from courses of a similar stature in the same geographical locale.

How's that for a great non-answer?  

[JMorgan]

Phil, honestly, your answers get better as time goes by. 

I am going to recommend triple by-pass surgery to all my friends. 

[Ed Oden]

Rock Hill Country Club in Rock Hill, SC purports to be a Tilly design, although I seem to recall that he only had a hand in nine holes.  Perhaps Philip Young will know.  I have not played it, but the kindest reports from those who have is that the course is exceedingly underwhelming.

Ed   

[Phil_the_Author]

On point that I forgot to mention is in response to both Wayne and Cliff. You need to look at the designs through the eyes of the day they were created rather than today's. Let's take Shawnee as an example.

Shawnee received universal praise and with the beginning of the Shawnee Open which began in 1912 drawing the leading professionals and amateurs from around the country to play in it, Tilly's name as an architect who could design terrific golf courses was spread from coast-to-coast literally overnight. As a result, within 4 years he was working in Florida, Texas and was even out in California. All before he even began advertising his services to any extent.

For their time, both Shawnee and Aronomink were greatly praised by many players of note. Today, if Aronomink was around, it would probably have been changed by now, or if it remained the same, would obviously be hopelessly outdated. Shawnee has undergone many changes and there is very little of the original Tilly left. To judge it based upon today's eyes then would be short-sighted.

It would be short-sighted to do so for any architect. For example, Pinehurst #2 has been changed throughout the years from when it was first designed, including a great deal by Ross himself. Today we would view the original course as mediocre at best, yet we view it through the eyes of what it has become which is special indeed. Still, the original design was also special for its day and so it enabled a backwoods area of the sandhills of North Carolina to become one of the great family vacation and golf destinations in America...

[Phil_the_Author]

Ed,

Rock Hill is another course that has very little Tilly left in it. He designed nine holes there which were expanded to 18 later on.

I've actually been meaning to visit it for two years now and little things like what James referred to have managed to put it on the back burner...

Actually, there is another nine-holer, Meyers Park, just up the road in North Carolina that was definitely a mediocre design done in 1921 at best before the club moved to its present location. Yet, if it still existed in its original condition, every Tilly fanatic would flock to see it because of a single feature.

Care to guess what it was? 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Phil,

How would you classify Wyoming Valley and Irem Temple in the Wilkes-Barre, PA area?

[Phil_the_Author]

Steve,

They are two older designs by Tilly that have aged gracefully and are well worth visit to play them. They each have memorable features and holes that a serious student of Tilly and other Golden Age architects should consider in trying to understand the historical evolution of the design process.

Hopefully that answer doesn't inspire Dr. James to encourage more bypass surgeries!

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I've played Wyoming Valley and liked it. Some holes were very well done. I have not played Irem Temple yet. I understand it is now public or semi-private.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shawnee as it exists today is about 15% Tillinghast, so that's not a good example.

Other's like Cedar Crest and Brackenridge Park in TX have lost much to time, neglect and lack of financiing.

Interestingly, in the last few years I've played a number of unknown Tillinghast courses such as Wyoming Valley, Fox Hill, Valley CC, and others, and find that his "second tier" courses are both marvelous and thankfully, pretty well-preserved.

Yesterday I played Essex County where 7 of the holes are from his original course there, and I have to say that despite my enjoyment of the more starkly obvious demands of the Raynor/Banks holes, the TIllinghast holes seemed to fit more gracefully on the land.   It's a very interesting and insightful contrast on a wonderful golf course.

[Phil_the_Author]

Mike,

Brackenridge Park has just undergone what looks to be a terrific restoration by Ft. Worth-based architect John Colligan. I spent a delightful afternoon with him and his associate Trey at their office about two months ago. They shared the design drawings and numerous photographs of the work with me and the work looks quite astonishing.

They have endeavored to restore as much of the original features and holes as physically possible, even going so far as to bringing back 5 square greens!

The photograph of the tenth hole looks as if they built it exactly to Tilly's own drawing including restoration of the creek that runs throughout the course...

It is to open in November and I'm hoping to be down there for it.

Send me your address and I'll copy the photos (about 75) and send them to you on disk.

Phil

[DBE]

Oak Hills (San Antonio), Brook Hollow (Dallas) and Sunnehanna (Johnstown, PA) are mediocre.

Oak Hills and Brook Hollow are so heavily treed, it's impossible on many holes to get to fairway or green without having to go over or under trees.

Trees at Sunnehanna (too many and too close firs with limbs on the ground) make it boring and only a couple of holes on the entire course are worth remembering.  The amateur tournament in June is nice but the course needs some help.

[Ed Oden]

Actually, there is another nine-holer, Meyers Park, just up the road in North Carolina that was definitely a mediocre design done in 1921 at best before the club moved to its present location. Yet, if it still existed in its original condition, every Tilly fanatic would flock to see it because of a single feature.

Care to guess what it was? 

Phil, I'll bite, what was the feature?  I didn't realize Myers Park CC was originally on a different site.  Any idea where?

Ed

[Patrick_Mucci]

Oak Hills (San Antonio), Brook Hollow (Dallas) and Sunnehanna (Johnstown, PA) are mediocre.

Oak Hills and Brook Hollow are so heavily treed, it's impossible on many holes to get to fairway or green without having to go over or under trees.

Trees at Sunnehanna (too many and too close firs with limbs on the ground) make it boring and only a couple of holes on the entire course are worth remembering.  The amateur tournament in June is nice but the course needs some help.

David,

I wouldn't think that the heavy trees at BH were AWT's work.

Were they part of the original design or introduced afterwards ?

Does the same apply to the other courses ?

[JMorgan]

Phil, what was Tilly's contribution to Port Jervis CC?  He did one of the nines and modifications to the rest of the course?  Certainly not one that ranks in the upper half.

[Phil_the_Author]

Ed,

Yes, it was elsewhere. I've actually been promised a side trip to see it when I get up there to visit.

As for the feature... C'mon, take a guess...

Here's a hint - Tilly NEVER used this design feature anywhere else that we know of!

[DBE]

Old photos would reveal what Oak Hills and Brook Hollow were like with respect to trees when they were opened.  

My preference would be not to bother playing either because the trees are extremely intregal parts in which the courses must be played. The members at both clubs obviously have allowed trees to continue to stand and grow.  It's doubtful anyone is alive who knows if trees were part of these Tillinghast's designs but, they surely are now.  

[Bart Bradley]

Ed,

Yes, it was elsewhere. I've actually been promised a side trip to see it when I get up there to visit.

As for the feature... C'mon, take a guess...

Here's a hint - Tilly NEVER used this design feature anywhere else that we know of!

I'll go "ISLAND GREEN" ...but I'll only wager $100.

Bart

[mike_beene]

Brook Hollow was originally bunkers instead of trees between fairways.

[Phil_the_Author]

Bart,

Keep your hundred... you'll need it!

Tilly did several "island" greens including his first one, the famed "Moat Hole" at Galen Hall.

Mike and David, Brook Hollow actually has an Arbor Plan begun in 1994 and originally crafted for them by Geoffrey Cornish and now overseen by Crenshaw.

It takes a very long-term view of the trees and their impact on the golf course...

[Ed Oden]

As for the feature... C'mon, take a guess...

Here's a hint - Tilly NEVER used this design feature anywhere else that we know of!

Phil, I don't know that much about Tilly, so I am likely to look like a fool.  But my wife assures me that is one of my best qualities.  So I will take a stab nonetheless.  I seem to recall that Tilly was no fan of the MacRayBanks school of design.  So my guess is that it is some feature typical of that school.  How about a biarritz green?

Ed