Confidential Guide Tens

[Anthony Gray]

  In his Confidential Guide which courses did Tom Doak rate a 10. And does enyone know if he would rate any modern courses a 10.

[Tom_Doak]

Anthony:

There were twelve courses in the book which got a 10.  They were:

St. Andrews Old Course
Muirfield
Royal Dornoch
Ballybunion (Old)
Royal Melbourne (West)
National Golf Links of America
Shinnecock Hills
Pine Valley
Merion (East)
Pinehurst (No. 2)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point

[Tom_Doak]

I have since been asked many times on this forum and elsewhere if there are any courses from the last 12 years since the book was published, which I would rate a 10. 

I've responded I would probably give that rating to Sand Hills and maybe to Pacific Dunes.  There may be a handful of other contenders among modern courses -- including a couple of ours -- but I have not had the opportunity to play any of them enough yet to be comfortable giving them a perfect score.

[Shane Wright]

I'm sure there is a passage somewhere in the archives, but where can I find the description of Doak's rankings

[Tom Huckaby]

I'm sure there is a passage somewhere in the archives, but where can I find the description of Doak's rankings

Shane - here's as good as anything:

http://www.designmentor.co.uk/dynamicpoll/scale.htm

[Shane Wright]

Thanks Tom

[Chip Gaskins]

Tom-

Why do you rank Pacific Dunes higher than Ballyneal.  Are there any specific attributes that make Pacific Dunes a potential Doak 10 and not Ballyneal?

Chip

[Voytek Wilczak]

So who on GCA played all 10?

Come on - fess up.

I played five...

[Tom_Doak]

Chip:

As I thought my above statement made pretty clear, I've played Pacific Dunes about 50 times, with a wide variety of different people.  That's enough to be reasonably satisfied that I am basing my rating of the course on how it plays, and not just on how cool I thought my design was.

I've played Ballyneal about ten times ... Cape Kidnappers seven or eight ... Sebonack six or seven ... Rock Creek five ... and Barnbougle Dunes only three times.  (And St. Andrews Beach and The Renaissance Club only once each, well before they were ready to open!)  So, in all of those cases, I don't feel I have played the course enough to take off my designer's hat and judge them on their playability, and therefore I'm not ready to give any of them a 10.  In fact, that's one of the main reasons I won't come out with a new edition of The Confidential Guide -- because I don't want to have to rate my own work anymore.  It's a lot less controversial if others rate them instead.

Just FYI, of the dozen courses I rated as 10's in the book, I've either played ten rounds on each of them, or I've been out to see them on 5-6 different occasions over a 20-year period.  Obviously, I can't keep that same standard for giving out ratings of 7 or 3 ... and I'm not likely to go back to a "3" ten times ... but if I'm giving out a 10 I want to be really convinced of my score.

[Chip Gaskins]

Tom-

Fair enough.  I thought you had probably played Ballyneal more than that and I was hoping you would indulge us with a compare and contrast of the two courses.  Alas, those days are over and reserved for our causal reading of The Confidential Golf Guide.

Chip

[Lawrence Largent]

Is anyone else surprised that Royal Country Down didn't get a 10

Lawrence

[Bob Jenkins]

Just gotta get a copy of the Confidential Guide, after a couple of years of hearing you talk about it. I keep thinking every time I enter a used book store I will find one sitting there for the taking. It now looks as though it is "pie in the sky" [where did that expression come from ?] so I am going to have to make the best deal possible on EBay or Craig's List.
Tom, are there any Stanley Thompson courses you have played often enough and may meet that criteria of a "10"? Any you may have played a few times you think could meet that test?

From a recent return to Capilano, I have renewed interest in Thompson and thought I would ask. I think that after a couple of years of hanging around here, I appreciate Cap more than I ever did before, especially with the options of playing short and letting the ball run up on the green.

I will renew my search for a Confidential Guide this weekend.

Bob Jenkins

[Bart Bradley]

Bob:

Not too long ago Tom Doak said on this site that he had never played Banff and Jasper...two of Stanley Thompson's greatest.  I don't know if they would be 10s anyway, and maybe Tom has travelled to Alberta to remedy this problem...

Bart

[Carl Nichols]

Bob:
I just returned from a trip to Vancouver, Vancouver Island, and Salt Spring Island, but for various reasons didn't have a chance to play golf while there.  Do you think Capilano is the best of the Vancouver-area courses?  It looks like it's in a stunning location.  

[Sean Leary]

Bob J,

Next time we play I will bring you mine to look at. I have the one with no pics.

[jim_lewis]

11

[Gene Greco]

So who on GCA played all 10?

Come on - fess up.

I played five...

I have been fortunate enough to have played them all except Royal Melbourne.

Additionally, I have  only walked the first eleven holes at Pacific Dunes.

[Bob Jenkins]

Carl,

Sean Leary, John Mayhugh and I played Capilano in early August. Although it was a first for them, it was the first time I had played there in 4 or 5 years. Athough I had played it about 10 times previously, probably due to the education I have received on this website for the last few years, I was able to appreciate Capilano and Stanley Thompson much more than I ever had in the past. As many have said here before, the routing is amazing but most of all, the strategy of bumping into several of those holes is even more amazing. The only weakness at Capilano, so far as I am concerned, are the short par 5s, ie. 1, 3 and 5. Otherwise it is not far from a 10 or I assume Tom may not have been far from giving it a 10! That is based on having played 3 of the 10s on Tom's list above plus Ballyneal, which is very special.

If you are ever back in this part of the world, would love to show you around.

Bob Jenkins

[Carl Nichols]

Bob:
Thanks very much for the offer.  I hope to get back to Vancouver often -- it's one of my favorite cities in the world. 

[Matt_Ward]

Lawrence L:

The short answer is no.

RCD's front nine is superior to the back -- for example, the 17th hole is a real let down (the pond being only part of the issue) and the 18th is simply bunker overkill in my mind.

Candidly, Portrush (Dunluce) has the better argument for a possible ten score than the New Castle layout in my opinion.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Lawrence L:

The short answer is no.

RCD's front nine is superior to the back -- for example, the 17th hole is a real let down (the pond being only part of the issue) and the 18th is simply bunker overkill in my mind.

Although I think that the weak back nine gets overplayed somewhat at RCD... the first few on the back nine are pretty much the equal of the front... 13 is a great hole, 15 is pretty fantastic and the new 16th is a very good short par-4.

It was just 17 and 18 for me... It was just a minor let down to finish the course that way (even though 17 green site is still a really good one and 18 isn't a bad hole, it just seems out of scale and drama for such a dramatic place)

[JESII]

Matt,

Other than the pond, what are the problems with #17 at RCD?

Is the problem with the pond that it is only about 250 from the tee? Or is there something else?

Re: #18, I got tied up in those bunkers as well, but I think it is a very good hole.

[Shane Wright]

Lawrence L:

The short answer is no.

RCD's front nine is superior to the back -- for example, the 17th hole is a real let down (the pond being only part of the issue) and the 18th is simply bunker overkill in my mind.

Although I think that the weak back nine gets overplayed somewhat at RCD... the first few on the back nine are pretty much the equal of the front... 13 is a great hole, 15 is pretty fantastic and the new 16th is a very good short par-4.

It was just 17 and 18 for me... It was just a minor let down to finish the course that way (even though 17 green site is still a really good one and 18 isn't a bad hole, it just seems out of scale and drama for such a dramatic place)

I played RCD this summer......While the back is clearly not as spectacular as the front I don't get all the negativity towards #18.  Compare for instance #18 at Muirfield which many say is one of the great finishing holes if not the best on the OPEN rotation.  What about #18 at Muirfield makes it so much better than #18 at RCD.  #18 at Muirfield punishes the tee shot severely but is a straight forward 2nd shot assuming a straight drive.  #18 at RCD is a tough driving hole and you are in jail if you miss the green to the left on your 2nd or 3rd shots.  RCD was my favorite of the trip with Ballybunion and Portrush (Dunluce) tied at #2.  I understand some of the arguments on #17 at RCD but still a great approach and green complex.  

[Chip Gaskins]

talk about let down.  portrush #17 and #18 aren't exactly spectacular.  i love portrush, probably in my top 10, but RCD is tied with PV in my book as the best in the world.

[archie_struthers]

 :


I love Doaks' attitude...he has never been afraid to say the "Emperor has no clothes"

In that he knew that they knew  ...and they knew that he knew that they knew....more than them about architecture ....they couldn't shout him down ...politically speaking

RAVE ON TOM  !  keep posting !!!